The Missing Bodies

[AGRBear]

Date 11 July 1991: The layers of the grave as the bones were being dug up and removed were:
1. Top-layer was 30 centimeters
2. Railroad ties with "redeposited soil" - southern wall of mass grave then stones, branches, rotten wood
3. First bone uncovered was left pelvic bone of human remains at depth of 50 centimeters
4. Found the box with three skulls, sacrum, glass ampoules and viles [human hair and frgments of skin], two lumbar vertebrae, kneecaps, two jaw fragments with teeth, a lower jaw, two loose teeth two vertebra from neck, a right rib bone, two metcarpal bones, a right hipbone, portion of a left shoulder bone, which had been placed in the pit in 1980 by Ryabov and Avdonin who had returned what they had found and taken out. The box was taken up and opened.
--

12 July 1991
5. Determined the dig in 1979 had damaged the integrity of the 1918 grave
6. Pit was widen and deepen
7. More bones found as well as fragments of vessels which is assumed were what had held the acid used in 1918.... rope...
8. The laying of a cable was noticed on the western corner of the pit
9. See diagram of now the bones were found....

[unclear when the following was found]
10. firing mechanism from a hand grenade
11. bullets: fourteen bullets from the following:
a. one - 7.63 mm Mauser
b. four were from:
Browning
Colt
Smith & Wesson
c. nine were from:
Russian Nagant revolvers
--

13 July 1991- Exhumation ended

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For more details see THE FATE OF THE ROMANOVS b y Wilson and King pps. 402-8
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23 July to 25 July 1991

Bones were taken from the grave and to the Upper Verkh-Isetsk Police Departemnt's shooting range which is on the edge of Sverdlovsk

On ten sheets of plain brown wrapping paper the bones were sorted [ the tenth were for the "we don't know" pile
----
Days which followed.

Bones were cleaned and washed and it is said that some bones crumbled into dust during this process....
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8 Aug 1991
Moscow authorized the formal investigation of the bones under the leadship of Dr. Bladislav Plaskin

All bones were numbered with white paint
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End of Sept.
Remains were moved to the Department of Criminal Pathology morgue in Sverdlovsk, third floor and behind a gated and locked door.... Bones were placed on metal autopsy tables and arranged...

Total of 500 bone fragments were left [there are 206 individal bones in each human body]....

------
Second dig of mass grave

Oct 1991
12. 300 bone fragments were found
13. 13 loose teeth
14. 11 bullets
15. 150 small pieces of fatty tissue
16. fragments of rope and ceramic
----



Found: 25 bullets

Only 14 we know for certain came out of the mass grave. The other 11 were found while sifting dirt that was lefted by bulldozer shovels which included not just the grave but ground around the grave.

The Russians were not using the best of forensic methods in the first or second digging.

New graves found in 2007:
3 bullets that do not match any of the 25 bullets before 2007....

Added to this are the bullets from Sokolev's collection which numbered 11.

The total is 39 bullets.

AGRBear

[RoyalSophie]

Are they still sure the two found bodies are Alexei and of his sisters? Or is that up for debate know, with those different bullets?

[Forum Admin]

The DNA testing is fully conclusive that the last two bodies are the children of Nicholas and Alexandra and siblings to the earlier female skeletons found.  There is clearly a gun used that was perhaps not originally catalogued or put into the museum or whatever.

There is NO doubt about the identities of the two found.

[Pavel Mikhailovitch]

There is clearly a gun used that was perhaps not originally catalogued or put into the museum or whatever.

There is NO doubt about the identities of the two found.

still catching up on lots of details, but can explain this possibility in two ways:

1. Many sidearn rounds are interchangable, but often with lower efficiency.
2. They open the acid pots with with gunfire. Someone using a pistol that was not originally used in the execution?

Just a few thoughts anyway.

[Pavel Mikhailovitch]

As a side point from the above:

If gunfire was used to open the pots, could these rounnds also have hit the bodies (and therefore caused confusion on who recieved which damage- e.g. Body number 6's skull as reported in FOTR?)

[AGRBear]

http://www.youtube.com/user/SnowyHistory#p/u/3/HonT60qAB0g

There are four parts to SnowyHistory which goes into detail about the execution, burial, finding the remains in secret than publicly, plus the DNA of  the Royal Family.   From this report and what others have reported,  all the members of the Royal Family have some  remains  within the mass grave known to us since 1991 and the graves found in 2007.

There are still some unanswered questions.  The DNA cannot tell us which Grand Duchess is in the grave next to Alexei's found in July of 2007.  And, it seems we will never be sure.  However,  we can have theories as to which Grand Duchess was with Alexei.  

I find the new evidence of the three bullets just added clues.  Perhaps,  in time,  we can, if we have enough facts,  can come to an educated and probably theory.

Let me back up just a little for newbies.

The Russians claim the remains of  in the grave in 2007 are Marie's, whereas,  our American forensic scientist William Maples,  believed Marie's remains #5 on the chart shown earlier were in the mass grave, and,  it was Anastasia's remains missing from the mass grave.  Maples' death makes it impossible for him to have viewed the remains found in the graves  of 2007.  Would he have changed his mind after studying the remains found in 2007?   I do not know.  I for one,  continued to think  Marie's remains were in the mass grave and Anastasia's are in the graves found in 2007.  One of my reasons is:  The remains #5 listed in the example shown earlier tell us the a bullet did enter  Marie's thigh as was stated in various testimonies of the shooters.  No other bullet holes in the remains of #5 were found.

Does it matter?  Like the narrator of the video voiced, and I'm paraphrasing,  as long as all their bodies are found,  there is no need to stew over the identity of each set of remains.  

It has been concluded that the three new bullets  found before 2007 do not match any of the 39 bullets found by the Whites in 1918 and  the mass grave made public in 1991.  It was this new evidence which  sparked my curiosity, again, about who was buried with Alexei.  Was it Marie or was it Anastasia?

As far as we knew, up to recently,  all the guns were listed and accounted in various testimonies of the shooters.  The three new bullets tell us, now, we have a new gun, a Browning, manufactured somehwere around the late 1890s and before 1918 with a different caliber  [numbers not mentioned in the video].  Who knows what else we'll learn in the next few years.

Thanks for showing your interest.



AGRBear

[RoyalSophie]

Thank you AGRbear, now it is clear to me .

[AGRBear]

My pleasure.

AGRBear

[AGRBear]

This was FA's annoucement to us in 2007.  You will find the list of items found at this time:

People keep asking the same questions over and over again, so I have decided to put all the basic information in one place to keep these repetiious posts to a minimum.


On July 29, 2007, certain items were discovered by S.O. Plotnikov and L.G. Vakhmyakov.  In the bore pit that had been located and explored, coals, bone remains, nails and fragments from a ceramic vessel were unearthed.  The spot where the remains were found this summer appears to correspond to a site described by Yakov Yurovsky, the leader of the family's killers, said Sergei Pogorelov, deputy head of the archaeological research department at a regional center for the preservation of historical and cultural monuments in Yekaterinburg.

The deputy director of the Center of protection and use of the cultural heritage of Sverdlovsk, Andreï Grigoriev, told  journalists that the researches had begun after the discovery of archival documents.

" I learnt that the former regional archives of the Communist Party received documents speaking about the murder of the imperial family and about a fruitless attempt to hide corpses ", clarified Mr Grigoriev.

These documents had allowed the specialists to establish the place where the tsarevich Alexis and the grand duchess Marie would have been buried. Following the search organized on a site of 100 square meters, the researchers had discovered the remains of human bodies, bullets, fragments of wooden boxes and fragments of ceramic which, according to preliminary estimations, represented fragments of amphoras used to hold some acid.

an area of 100 square meters was laid out for further investigation.  The work was carried out according to archeological methods, with the use of drainage trenches.  As a result of this exploration, a large spot of coal was exposed.  Upon further examination, this spot was determined to be T-shaped.  After removing the layer of coal, the shapes and sizes of two overlying pits became evident in the subsoil.

    An area discovered along the Old Koptyaki Road presented double bonfire sites, spread between pits, which contained bone remains in various degrees of preservation and condition; bullets; iron nails and angles, fragments of a ceramic vessel and other objects.

•    Initial anthropological analysis determined that the bone remains were human, subjected to varying forms of destruction – including burning.  The bones belong to two young individuals – a young man between the ages of 10-13 years, and a young woman about 18-23.

•    Ceramic vessel fragments are identical to those found in the original burial site found in 1991, and appear to be fragments from ceramic amphorae containing Japanese sulfuric acid. Analysis matches these to be identical to the ones found in the burial site of the other bodies.  Yurovsky et al all describe the procuring and use of this acid during the attempted burning and burial process.

•    Iron angles and nails, apparently, appear to have held together the wooden crates containing the vessels with the sulfuric acid.

•    The metal jacket bullets are of different calibers, from cartridges for short-barreled firearms.  Analysis matches these to be identical to the ones found in the burial site of the other bodies discovered in  1991.

The Forensic Director of Medicine of Sverdlovsk Mr Nevoline clarified that the forensic scientists had also received seven fragments of teeth, three bullets of a weapon with short standard cannon and a fragment of fabric of garment.
 G.I. Sukhorukov, who was assigned to go help dispose of the corpses of the Royal Family the next morning in 1918. On April 3, 1928 his memoir:... "It was necessary to begin digging up the corpses (after the attempt to burn them the previous night)...the first thing we came across was the leg of the last Nicholas.  He was removed successfully, and then all the others. To be precise, it can be said that everybody was naked, except for the heir, who had on a sailor shirt but no trousers."

The three bullets also match exactly those found in the "mass grave" previously found in1991.
“The remains have been exposed to extreme heat, and the bullets were found close to the bones and must have hit the victims’ bodies,” Mr. Nevolin said

This is part of the formal  statement that was released by the General Procurator of the Russian Federation, August 24, 2007.
(I have separated the sentences for easy reading. Translation by Margarita Nelipa)

... 29 июля 2007 г. в яме глубиной до 60 см были обнаружены зубы, фрагменты черепных крышек, костей таза, ребер и трубчатых костей двух человек.

Там же находились 3 пули, часть разбитого керамического сосуда с глазурью, большое количество древесного угля и мелких сгоревших частиц костной ткани. На фрагментах черепных крышек имеются повреждения, внешне похожие на огнестрельные.

Все кости имеют признаки обгорания и воздействия на них агрессивных веществ.

... On 29 July in a pit at a depth of up to 60 cm. were discovered teeth, skull cap fragments, pelvic bones, ribs and the tubular bones of two persons.

In the same place were found 3 bullets, a segment from a broken ceramic vessel with glaze, a large quantity of charcoal and small charred bone tissue fragments. On the skull cap fragments there are injuries, externally resembling firearms.

All the bones have signs of burning and influences on them from aggressive forces.

[AGRBear]

This morning, Friday September 28, 2007 a media Conference was given by the assistant Director of the Sverdlovsk Forensic Medicine Bureau Vladimir Gromov. He announced the preliminary findings of the 2007 excavation remains.

They examined the 6 whole teeth and one tooth fragment. Silver amalgam fillings were found embedded in these teeth analogous with the dental work of the teeth identified in the 1991 excavation remains.

In addition, of the 48 bone fragments, 29 are not able to be identified at this stage. Many bone fragments are less than one gram in weight. Traces of gunshot wounds were also found on bone fragments.

These initial macroscopic observations are the first of many investigations to be undertaken in the next several months.

In addition Gromov has also announced that negotiations are proceeding with international DNA specialists to participate later in this Inquiry.

Margarita Nelipa

I think that covers what was found in the graves found in 2007.

October 12, 2007

Ballistics Results on the Ekaterinburg 2007 remains

Senior Procurator Vladimir Soloviev, who heads the Second Ekaterinburg Inquiry has announced the following ballistics results:

1.  The remains show evidence that two Browning revolvers were used. One weapon was a 1903 issue. The second weapon was a 1900 issue.

2.  The bullets that were discharged from these two weapons were the same as those that were found at the 1990's excavation location which contained the remains of Nikolai II, Alexandra Fedorovna and the other members of the Imperial Family + staff.

Margarita Nelipa

This is an update/ 2010: http://www.youtube.com/user/SnowyHistory#p/u/3/HonT60qAB0g

After farther testing of the 2 bullets found in the graves of 2007,  the marks on the two  bullets do NOT match the earlier bullets found.  The third is too damage to be tested.

All three are the same caliber and date around 1900 and they are different calibers than the bullets found earlier than 2007.

I think that brings everyone up to the present.


AGRBear

[capttrips]

This is a very long thread, and I will read through it, because it is interesting--scary, but interesting.

I am confused.  My dad was taught Russian by America.  He had to take a class in White Russian History.  I do not have him around to ask.

Is this how it happened?

A Czech Army sacked the Russian Treasury.  This Chech Army was approaching Ekaterinburg, when some sergeant panicked, and executed the Czar and his whole family, Against Orders!

Lennon had this enlisted man, and his most immediate officer summarily executed for Murdering the Czar.

The Chech Army took a railroad, went to Russia's East Coast, rendevouzed with Gen. Blackjack Persing, and all escaped to America.

Does any of this sound right, or close to right?  Chiefly, a rebel army was marching on Ekaterinburg, and the executor of the Czar was himself executed for the murder of the Czar?  Very interesting topic.

Is it possible these two missing bodies ended up in America or Chechylslovakia?  America had very close relations with the Czar (the Czar was the first to recognize the declaration of independence, the Czar sent a fleet to New York during the American Civil War, etc.)

[TimM]

Does any of this sound right, or close to right?  Chiefly, a rebel army was marching on Ekaterinburg, and the executor of the Czar was himself executed for the murder of the Czar?

Dude, I don't know where you got this info from, but it's not right.

Yakov Yurovsky, the guy in charge of the murder of the Tsar and his family did it under orders from Lenin (not Lennon) and the Ekaterinburg Soviet.  He did not panic and act on his own.  He had his orders and he carried them out.

Also, Yurovsky was not executed, he lived another twenty years, and died of natural causes.

[Belochka]

Also, Yurovsky was not executed, he lived another twenty years, and died of natural causes.

Officially, Yurovsky died in the Kremlin clinic from a perforated peptic ulcer, in August 1938.

[capttrips]

Thank you for your swift response.  The source of my incorrect information is my father, who learned this at the US Army's Defense Language Institute.  What I posted is, as I understand, the gist of what America teaches her Russian Spys (and a lot of Old Church Slavonic.)

What about this marauding Chezch Army?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Czechoslovak_Legion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_the_Romanov_family states, "An official announcement appeared in the national press, two days later. It reported that the monarch had been executed on the order of Uralispolkom under pressure posed by the approach of the Czechoslovaks.[15] Although official Soviet accounts place the responsibility for the decision with the Uralispolkom, Leon Trotsky in his diary states that the assassination took place on the authority of Lenin."

Do forgive my ignorance, but, was not someone officially blamed for the Czar's death, and punished for it, by Lennin himself, who gave the orders?

And, lastly, back to the small, but erroneous contribution I am trying to make, has anyone ever looked for Anastasia's grave in Chechylslovakia?

[TimM]

As for the Czechs, go here.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War