Author Topic: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family  (Read 246604 times)

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Offline Forum Admin

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2004, 09:39:27 AM »
Hi,
Ok, I apologise too, it just hit me the wrong way. What I really meant was this:
Those who wish to prosecute should gather their evidence to decide what crime YOU personally want to pursue. Identify the crime and then the evidence. The reason I ask this is that otherwise, this thread will be bogged down with lots of events/evidence without any organization to it. IF I can have a list of crimes first, I can put the evidence into the proper catagory, does that make sense?
I certainly don't want anyone to be restricted in whatever you want to pursue. Also, both sides are free to ask for and receive assistance from me, I'm not going to be partial to either side (the lawyer in me can separate the two).
FA

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2004, 11:00:01 AM »
All I have is 2 kopecks so I'll sit back and watch this unfold.  Should be interesting.

I still think Blood Sunday is a good choice and evidence for both sides is easily found.  And,  because, this is the event which the revolutionists use as their prime example against Nicholas II.

If you want to prove a case against both Nicholas II and Alexandra,  it'll have to be some event while Nicholas II was Commander- in- Chief.... on the front with his troops... At that time Alexandra held some power and made some poor decisions...

I agree with Admin. Forum.'s last remarks.  Can't open Case #One:  People Against ex-Emp. Nicholas II /Alexandra until you have the crime chosen, so,  suggestions are in order, or so I view it from here,  while sides are being taken.....

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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
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Offline Belochka

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #107 on: December 06, 2004, 08:57:13 PM »
Thanks Rob!! ;D Can we promote you in some way?

The Defense team now waits to see whether there will be any charges to answer, what evidence there might be, and who is to be brought before the Court to face prosecution.

Lisa and I can draw up our list of witnesses and initiate our own investigations based on what the Prosecution presents us.

Hopefully everyone will feel free to present any material which they believe may help either the Defense or Prosecution sides as they see fit.

We await further instructions.


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Richard_Cullen

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #108 on: December 07, 2004, 05:38:01 AM »
Rob, glad you are staying with the theme.

Right strater for ten, needs a number of messages:

1. defendant:   Nicholas Romanov Tsar
2. date:            9 January 1905
3. venue:         The environs of the Winter Palace St       Petersburg
4. charge:        Murder and unlawful killing, grievous bodily harm (mulitple charges)

Dissatisfied with the constitution’s results, the working class of Russia followed the leadership of Father Georgii Gapon, an Orthodox priest and policeman, and marched to St. Petersburg to petition the tsar. Upon arrival in St. Petersburg on January 9, 1905, nervous troops saw the approaching crowd and fired upon them, killing at least 200 people. “Bloody Sunday” marked the start of the 1905 Revolution.
After “Bloody Sunday,” Russia was in turmoil. The massacre caused revolt throughout the nation. Worker strikes, agricultural struggles, terrorism, and army mutiny were among the problems now facing the tsar.

The feeling of horror with which eye-witnesses, Russian and English, speak of this massacre surpasses description. Even time will not erase these horrible scenes from the memories of those who saw them, just as the horrors of a shipwreck remain engraved forever in the memory of a rescued passenger.What Gapon said immediately after the massacre about "the viper's brood" of the whole dynasty was echoed all over Russia, and went as far as the valleys of Manchuria. The whole character of the movement was changed at once by this massacre. All illusions were dissipated. As the autocrat and his supporters had not shrunk from that wanton, fiendish, and cowardly slaughtering, it was evident that they would stop at no violence and no treachery. From that day the name of the Romanoff dynasty began to become odious among the working men in Russia. The illusion of a benevolent autocrat who was going to listen paternally to the demands of his subjects was gone forever.

We wished to convey to you the effects of your autocratic rule and to highlight inequalities in the country, our intention was peaceful protest.

That you as the Tsar and autocrat - with absolute and unrestricted powers and thus Commander of Chief of the Russian Army in whose names all things are done.  permitted such murder and injury to take place.

Our petition follows:





Richard_Cullen

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #109 on: December 07, 2004, 05:38:48 AM »
Petition Prepared for Presentation to Nicholas II
on "Bloody Sunday" (January 9, 1905)
Sovereign!
We, workers and inhabitants of the city of St. Petersburg, members of various sosloviia (estates of the realm), our wives, children, and helpless old parents, have come to you, Sovereign, to seek justice and protection. We are impoverished and oppressed, we are burdened with work, and insulted. We are treated not like humans [but] like slaves who must suffer a bitter fate and keep silent. And we have suffered, but we only get pushed deeper and deeper into a gulf of misery, ignorance, and lack of rights. Despotism and arbitrariness are suffocating us, we are gasping for breath. Sovereign, we have no strength left. We have reached the limit of our patience. We have come to that terrible moment when it is better to die than to continue unbearable sufferings.
And so we left our work and declared to our employers that we will not return to work until they meet our demands. We do not ask much; we only want that without which life is hard labor and eternal suffering. Our first request was that our employers discuss our needs together with us. But they refused to do this; they denied us the right to speak about our needs, on the grounds that the law does not provide us with such a right. Also unlawful were our other requests: to reduce the working day to eight hours; for them to set wages together with us and by agreement with us; to examine our disputes with lower-level factory administrators; to increase the wages of unskilled workers and women to one ruble per day; to abolish overtime work; to provide medical care attentively and without insult; to build shops so that it is possible to work there and not face death from the awful drafts, rain and snow.
Our employers and the factory administrators considered all this to be illegal: every one of our requests was a crime, and our desire to improve our condition was slanderous insolence.
Sovereign, there are thousands of us here; outwardly we are human beings, but in reality neither we nor the Russian people as a whole are provided with any human rights, even the right to speak, to think, to assemble, to discuss our needs, or to take measure to improve our conditions. They have enslaved us and they did so under the protection of your officials, with their aid and with their cooperation. They imprison and send into exile any one of us who has the courage to speak on behalf of the interests of the working class and of the people. They punish us for a good heart and a responsive spirit as if for a crime. To pity a downtrodden and tormented person with no rights is to commit a grave crime. The entire working people and the peasants are subjected to the proizvol (arbitrariness) of a bureaucratic administration composed of embezzlers of public funds and thieves who not only have not concern at all for the interests of the Russian people but who harm those interests. The bureaucratic administration has reduced the country to complete destitution, drawn it into a shameful war, and brings Russia ever further towards ruin. We, the workers and the people, have no voice in the expenditure of the enormous sums that are collected from us. We do not even know where the money collected from the impoverished people goes. The people is deprived of any possibility of expressing its wishes and demands, or of participating in the establishment of taxes and in their expenditure. Workers are deprived of the possibility of organizing into unions to defend their interests. Sovereign! Does all this accord with the law of God, by Whose grace you reign? And is it possible to live under such laws? Would it not be better if we, the toiling people of all Russia, died? Let the capitalists--exploiters of the working class--and the bureaucrats--embezzlers of public funds and the pillagers of the Russian people--live and enjoy themselves.
Sovereign, this is what we face and this is the reason that we have gathered before the walls of your palace. Here we seek our last salvation. Do not refuse to come to the aid of your people; lead it out of the grave of poverty, ignorance, and lack of rights; grant it the opportunity to determine its own destiny, and deliver it from them the unbearable yoke of the bureaucrats. Tear down the wall that separates you from your people and let it rule the country together with you. You have been placed [on the throne] for the happiness of the people; the bureaucrats, however, snatch this happiness out of our hands, and it never reaches us; we get only grief and humiliation. Sovereign, examine our requests attentively and without any anger; they incline not to evil, but to the good, both for us and for you. Ours is not the voice of insolence but of the realization that we must get out of a situation that is unbearable for everyone. Russia is too big, her needs are to diverse and many, for her to be ruled only by bureaucrats. We need popular representation; it is necessary for the people to help itself and to administer itself. After all, only the people knows its real needs. Do not fend off its help, accept it, and order immediately, at once, that representatives of the Russian land from all classes, all estates of the realm be summoned, including representatives from the workers. Let the capitalist be there, and the worker, and the bureaucrat, and the priest, and the doctor and the teacher--let everyone, whoever they are, elect their representatives. Let everyone be free and equal in his voting rights, and to that end order that elections to the Constituent Assembly be conducted under universal, secret and equal suffrage.
This is our main request, everything is based on it; it is the main and only poultice for our painful wounds, without which those wounds must freely bleed and bring us to a quick death.
But no single measure can heal all our wounds. Other measures are necessary, and we, representing of all of Russia's toiling class, frankly and openly speak to you, Sovereign, as to a father, about them.
The following are necessary:
I. Measures against the ignorance of the Russian people
and against its lack of rights
1. Immediate freedom and return home for all those who have suffered for their political and religious convictions, for strike activity, and for peasant disorders.
2. Immediate proclamation of the freedom and inviolability of the person, of freedom of speech and of the press, of freedom of assembly, and of freedom of conscience in matters of religion.
3. Universal and compulsory public education at state expense.
4. Accountability of government ministers to the people and a guarantee of lawful administration.
5. Equality of all before the law without exception.
6. Separation of church and state
II. Measures against the poverty of the people
1. Abolition of indirect taxes and their replacement by a direct, progressive income tax.
2. Abolition of redemption payments, cheap credit, and the gradual transfer of land to the people.
3. Naval Ministry contracts should be filled in Russia, not abroad.
4. Termination of the war according to the will of the people.
III. Measures against the oppression of labor by capital
1. Abolition of the office of factory inspector.
2. Establishment in factories and plants of permanent commissions elected by the workers, which jointly with the administration are to investigate all complaints coming from individual workers. A worker cannot be fired except by a resolution of this commission.
3. Freedom for producer-consumer cooperatives and workers' trade unions--at once.
4. An eight-hour working day and regulation of overtime work.
5. Freedom for labor to struggle with capital--at once.
6. Wage regulation--at once.
7. Guaranteed participation of representatives of the working classes in drafting a law on state insurance for workers--at once.
These, sovereign, are our main needs, about which we have come to you; only when they are satisfied will the liberation of our Motherland from slavery and destitution be possible, only then can she flourish, only then can workers organize to defend their interests from insolent exploitation by capitalists and by the bureaucratic administration that plunders and suffocates the people. Give the order, swear to meet these needs, and you will make Russia both happy and glorious, and your name will be fixed in our hearts and the hearts of our posterity for all time--but if you do not give the order, if you do not respond to our prayer, then we shall die here, on this square, in front of your palace. We have nowhere else to go and no reason to. There are only two roads for us, one to freedom and happiness, the other to the grave. Let our lives be sacrificed for suffering Russia. We do not regret that sacrifice, we embrace it eagerly.
Georgii Gapon, priest
Ivan Vasimov, worker.
Translated by Daniel Field

Richard_Cullen

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #110 on: December 07, 2004, 05:39:46 AM »
Hope the above are sufficient to start off the process, more when I get a chnace

Richard

Offline AGRBear

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #111 on: December 07, 2004, 11:17:21 AM »
Great start!

So,  what do we need next?

The person in charge of Nicholas II's defense gives his ____ and/or opening statement?

Who's taken this position?

Afterwhich,  can some of us chime in as witnesses?  

I assume the defense's witnesses come afterwards/ the second phase???.

 Or,  is this going to be a running conversation?

 This might cause some confusion.   So let's set up a few rules by those who know what is needed.

Oh, and,  a judge,  who's taking that position.  Bob?

I assume all of us are on the jury panel.  Yes? No?  If not then who?

AGRBear
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by AGRBear »
"What is true by lamplight is not always true by sunlight."

Joubert, Pensees, No. 152

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #112 on: December 07, 2004, 11:34:34 AM »
Indictment 1 has been filed and posted separately.
The rules:
Prosecution must present and prove their case with evidence in the thread for each single charge of the indictment. During presentation of the case, Defense may object to specific evidence as
"Irrelevant": ie does not have direct bearing upon the charges (example character of the defendant "he loved his family", etc.)
"Hearsay": an out of court statement by a third party offered as true but unable to be corroborated. ie a letter saying "Nicholas told me that he wanted to kill the Jews".
Defense may also challenge the validity of evidence (this is not really "right" but we are dealing with historical documents and old testimony, so I will permit both sides to require proof of validity of evidence proffered.)
Prosecution will "rest its case" when done.
Defense has its turn, same rules apply.
Prosecution will have one turn to rebut Defense.
Defense will have one turn to rebut the Prosecution.

Sides may refer to evidence in other threads of the Indictment as it progresses rather than repeat it in full each time. HOWEVER, each thread will be strictly kept on topic of THAT charge and no "peanut gallery" comments allowed until both sides have rested. I WILL NOT TOLERATE CHATTER or "LARKING OFF" IN MY "COURTROOM". no warnings, it will just be removed. Clear?

Still working on the final judge or a jury...I lean to a jury...I will serve as procedural judge and my decisions on procedure and evidence will be final.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by admin »

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #113 on: December 07, 2004, 11:58:34 AM »
I also suggest that only those with business on the matter post to the Charges topics - the jury and the attorneys. It will simplify matters.

Also, though its not normal court procedure, it might make the process more interesting if the jury can ask questions?

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #114 on: December 07, 2004, 12:05:18 PM »
Lisa, thanks for clearing up that only the "attorneys" for each side may post in the charges threads, I intended that but didn't say it outright.
No questions until AFTER both sides have rested. I will permit the jury (all users wanting to voice a vote ONE VOTE ONLY) to ask questions before voting on a verdict

Richard_Cullen

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #115 on: December 07, 2004, 01:17:05 PM »
I like the indictment but not being that bright can someone articulate who comprises the prosecution and defence teams. Who leads for both teams and what we (all of us - maybe Rob could lead expect in terms of evidence)
For instance do you want?:

1.  Individual accounts if they exist
2.  Evidence that Nicholas was an autocrat and thus vicariously liable for that which was done in his name.
3.  Evidence to support the 'peaceful' nature of the 9 January demonstration.
4.  Evidence of individual deaths or will rough numbers do (I don't think there are precise figures)
5.  The command structure of the militray units at the Winter Palace
6.  The Tsar's response once told.

I suppose my question is are we doing this by the 'book' which I believe we should or do we have latitude in the 'evidence' that is presented.

Finally 'no name calling' because this is likely to rake over some pretty sensitive issues.

I am quite happy to participate in anyway I can but like many of us on here have to fit it in during my working and family life.  My wife is already fed up with rasputin, putting the Tsar on trial could be the straw that broke the camel's back.

Richard

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #116 on: December 07, 2004, 01:33:09 PM »
Richard,
I modified the Indictment post to assist and answer your questions.

pushkina

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #117 on: December 07, 2004, 02:05:58 PM »
i too (and some others too) am working on my briefs but to do this well demands time so i beg the indulgence of the members.


Offline Merrique

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #118 on: December 07, 2004, 05:58:37 PM »
This is really going to be interesting.I'm looking forward to seeing how this cyber trial unfolds.
Eventhough the thought of being the judge in this trial does seem kinda cool,I don't have the legal knowledge for that sort of thing.So put me on the jury.I cannot wait to see the evidence presented by both sides.I think this will definately be a very good learning experience for everyone. :)
Don't knock on Death's door....ring the doorbell and run. He hates that.:D

Jane

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Re: Crimes Against Russia - Nicholas II + Family
« Reply #119 on: December 07, 2004, 06:05:13 PM »
Oh, this is very entertaining.  I am an attorney, and my practice area happens to include criminal law, so I may be able to offer assistance if it is needed as the trial approaches (just in a general advisory capacity; I have no wish to be on either team here--talk about a busman's holiday).

Re: judge v. jury?  I haven't yet taken a look at the Canadian statutes being applied to this exercise, but assuming that the jury system is a matter of right for the accused, has a jury already been selected?  Should the jury panel be chosen now?