Do you write Romanov or Romanoff?

[Превед]

Do you write Spala or Spała? (Or perhaps Spawa?) Is it imperialistic and insulting to Polish national sentiment* to write Spała without a crossed l?

(* I suspect anti-Polish sentiment runs deep among Romanov fans, because of general Polish-Russian historical animosity, the Spała incident and Franziska Schanzkowska / Franciszką Szankowską.)

[AngelAnastasia]

I prefer to use Romanov.
I think it has a nicer ring to it, and if I'm not mistaken it's the more common spelling as well.

[Превед]

I prefer to use Romanov.
I think it has a nicer ring to it

Are you partial to Ukrainian, with fully voiced final obstruent (/ov/), as opposed to the Russian devoicing (/of/)?

[AngelAnastasia]

I would say so, yes. "Romanov" sounds much bolder, fit for a ruler.

[Forum Admin]

Romanoff is French.  Romanov is English. As French was a primary language of the Imperial Court, the name "Romanoff" was used in English by the Imperial Chancery itself (see the Statesmans' Handbook published in Petersburg 1896 as a guide to English speaking Diplomats sent to the Imperial Court).  Today both spellings are accepted, however Romanov is preferred in English and Romanoff is preferred for French.

Which "sounds" better is immaterial.

[Превед]

"Romanov" sounds much bolder, fit for a ruler.

Perhaps no coïncidence that the back vowels o and a both are considered hard (in Russian), broad (in Irish) and that this combined with a voiced fricative (v) makes a rather gruff, harsh, masculine impression. (Horror example: The name of the Swiss town of Domodossola.) Dominant, one could say, if it wasn't for the fact that it's the soft, thin, "feminine" vowels e and i that have the most power over the consonants surrounding them, through palatalisation :-)

Romanoff is French.  Romanov is English. As French was a primary language of the Imperial Court, the name "Romanoff" was used in English by the Imperial Chancery itself (see the Statesmans' Handbook published in Petersburg 1896 as a guide to English speaking Diplomats sent to the Imperial Court).  Today both spellings are accepted, however Romanov is preferred in English and Romanoff is preferred for French.

Actually, nowadays the -ов suffix is transscribed -ov in French too. See Wikipédia: Transcription du russe en français E.g. Sergueï Lavrov.
 Les Romanoffs is thus also literally un souvenir du monde d'hier, e.g. Proust. But of course there are many descendants of Russian émigrés in France whose surnames are spelled -off.

Which "sounds" better is immaterial.

Yes, but one could just as well transscribe Russian by representing how it sounds, e.g. Романов > Remahneff. Letter-for-letter transliteration can sometimes yield strange results, like when the Russians transscribe the name of the 2018 Olympic Winter Games venue, 평창군, transliterated as P'yeongch'ang (pronounced [pʰjʌŋtɕʰaŋ]) with the apostrophes representing aspiration of the consonant, as Пхёнчхан.

BTW its funny that English-speakers may think Romanov is pronounced the way it's spelled the same way Russians may think that Windsor is pronounced Vint-sohr :-) Windsor looks a lot bolder and more regal than /winzer/ sounds!

[edubs31]

I prefer Romanov. It just looks more quintessentially Russian to me. Growing up during the early-90s post-Soviet influx of Russian born hockey players to the NHL you saw plenty of Federov, Fetisov, Konrantinov, and Ulanovs. But no Federoff, Fetisoff, Konstantinoff, or Ulanoffs. Of course the use of 'ov' was used by American and Canadian media translating these names to our western alphabet and nothing technically official.

Still 'off' just looks awkward to me. As a Romanov fan I'd much prefer turning them "On" than "Off" :-)

[Rodney_G.]

I early noticed that books written in English about the Romanovs in the late nineteenth century and twentieth century up to roughly the late nineteen twenties (1920s) by educated upper -class authors almost invariably used the"off" form for the suffix, and not just with Romanovs. This practice applied to other "ov" endings, and not a few in"iev" . I just found it wierd and offputting to read about Kieff and sometimes Prokofieff. That usage just comes across as very dated and even without knowing the content of the Romanoff usage I can fairly accurately date the time of writing.

Again, you'll notice that "Romanov" becomes by far the more common form in post-1920s usage. Not sure why. Count me an"ov" guy.

[Превед]

And then, in older French sources, you sometimes get some German-derived forms with w, like Wladimir and Newski Prospekt, even Romanow.

Just the other day it struck me how most of mispronounce the name of the town of Kraków, which actually is [krakuf], unless you use the German name Krakau.

And speaking of the difference a v and a w can do, in the 150th anniversary of the Battle of Dybbøl: Few names signify patrician, German-influenced, but anti-Prussian Danishness better than Vilhelm instead of Wilhelm.

[Превед]

In the Scandinavian languages you can argue whether you should say 'Moskva with stress on the first syllable (natural native pronunciation) or Mos'kva with stress on the second (Russian pronunciation).

[Kalafrana]

(* I suspect anti-Polish sentiment runs deep among Romanov fans, because of general Polish-Russian historical animosity, the Spała incident and Franziska Schanzkowska / Franciszką Szankowską.)

This is a bit sweeping! For many Brits of my age group, the opposite is true. we had parents of the world War Two generation, which held the Poles in high regard. We then grew up in the era of Solidarity and Pope John Paul II.

Ann

[Rodney_G.]

I definitely agree with Ann here, in all respects." Romanov fan "encompasses a lot. I daresay little of it, maybe none , involves admiration for the earliest Romanov Tsars, like Ivan the Terrible, nor even Catherine the Great., and the autocratic excesses of Romanov rule, in many respects even extending through the end of the reign of Alexander III. Opposition to that is not inconsistent, for many of us fans,  with an interest in the Romanov line as a whole ,and fascination , and indeed, affection, for the last Imperial Family, including of course, OTMAA.
It's a mistake to equate Romanovphilia (Romanov fandom) with al things Russian, and most especially not with the Communist destroyers and successors to Nicholas II's reign. My strong lifelong anti-communism as a child of the Cold War equates well with a large amount of admiration for Poles, whether in opposition to the Russians in the war of 1920, or in resistance to Soviet invasion and occupation from 1939, including the Katyn Forest massacre of thousands of the best of the Poles.

This Romanov fan could fairly be said to be a great admirer of Solidarity and John Paul II's role in rallying Poles against communist rule in Poland.
And I must say I don't see any real cause for anti- Polish sentiment in the Spala incident or Franziska Schanzkowska. The former was part of Russian empire in 1912 and a favorite visiting site for the IF. The latter's Polishness was (is) a complete non-factor to Romanov fans.

[edubs31]

I definitely agree with Ann here, in all respects." Romanov fan "encompasses a lot. I daresay little of it, maybe none , involves admiration for the earliest Romanov Tsars, like Ivan the Terrible, nor even Catherine the Great., and the autocratic excesses of Romanov rule, in many respects even extending through the end of the reign of Alexander III. Opposition to that is not inconsistent, for many of us fans,  with an interest in the Romanov line as a whole ,and fascination , and indeed, affection, for the last Imperial Family, including of course, OTMAA.
It's a mistake to equate Romanovphilia (Romanov fandom) with al things Russian, and most especially not with the Communist destroyers and successors to Nicholas II's reign. My strong lifelong anti-communism as a child of the Cold War equates well with a large amount of admiration for Poles, whether in opposition to the Russians in the war of 1920, or in resistance to Soviet invasion and occupation from 1939, including the Katyn Forest massacre of thousands of the best of the Poles.

This Romanov fan could fairly be said to be a great admirer of Solidarity and John Paul II's role in rallying Poles against communist rule in Poland.
And I must say I don't see any real cause for anti- Polish sentiment in the Spala incident or Franziska Schanzkowska. The former was part of Russian empire in 1912 and a favorite visiting site for the IF. The latter's Polishness was (is) a complete non-factor to Romanov fans.

Yes indeed. Russian culture is so unique and idiosyncratic I feel like there is a cavernous divide from being a fan of the royalty and a fan of "all things Russia". That's not say I am anti-Russia in any way. I missed most of the Cold War (being born in 1980) and missed all of the truly "hot" period. That said the media and general American sentiment towards Russia and the Soviet Republics naturally skewed towards the negative. We made fun of the Reds in movies as dubious dimwits, emotionless zombies, or downright evil. Around the same time many of us were fascinated by the splendor, tragedy and mystery of the last imperial family. That it was a Russian tale seemed either fairly irrelevant or even added a flavor of mystery.

But the country itself is so fascinating...Massive, diverse, incredibly powerful and horribly corrupt, blessed with brilliance and ignorance. European and Asian. Autocratic, Communist and Democratic (well sort of) all inside a single 75-year time frame...Absolutely fascinating!

[her daughter]

My grandfather wrote it like this:

[edubs31]

My grandfather wrote it like this:

And of course he would know...being a direct descendant of Tsar Alexander III and all...