Do you write Romanov or Romanoff?

[Ally Kumari]

In Czech the Russian names are transliterated, sometimes to my despair completely (hence for example Nikolai I. becomes Mikuláš II.). The surname remaines in the "Romanov" form though. The "off" seems distinctly German (French?), while the "ov" Slavic.

[Превед]

(* I suspect anti-Polish sentiment runs deep among Romanov fans, because of general Polish-Russian historical animosity, the Spała incident and Franziska Schanzkowska / Franciszką Szankowską.)

This is a bit sweeping! For many Brits of my age group, the opposite is true. we had parents of the world War Two generation, which held the Poles in high regard. We then grew up in the era of Solidarity and Pope John Paul II.

I definitely agree with Ann here, in all respects." Romanov fan "encompasses a lot. I daresay little of it, maybe none , involves admiration for the earliest Romanov Tsars, like Ivan the Terrible, nor even Catherine the Great., and the autocratic excesses of Romanov rule, in many respects even extending through the end of the reign of Alexander III. Opposition to that is not inconsistent, for many of us fans,  with an interest in the Romanov line as a whole ,and fascination , and indeed, affection, for the last Imperial Family, including of course, OTMAA.

Of course, this was said tongue in cheek, and I know it's not true, being fascinated with such apparantly mutually exclusive cultures as German and Polish. But it is indeed food for thought that in the reasons for our admiration for the Poles: their fights against Nazi and Soviet occupation - lies their opposition to the rule of the Romanovs, who were seen throughout the whole 19th century untill 1918 as occupiers.

Through their Scandinavian relations and by living very close to Finland, on old Finnic land and in Finland in the summer, the Romanovs had some sort of relationship with Finland. In Poland they seem to just have been hated then - and ignored today.

And I must say I don't see any real cause for anti- Polish sentiment in the Spala incident or Franziska Schanzkowska. The former was part of Russian empire in 1912 and a favorite visiting site for the IF. The latter's Polishness was (is) a complete non-factor to Romanov fans.

It is interesting that Franziska Schanzkowska never was a Polish citizen and never lived in the Polish Republic, having moved to Berlin before her home region became Polish in 1920.

[Превед]

The surname remaines in the "Romanov" form though. The "off" seems distinctly German (French?), while the "ov" Slavic.

But you pronounce it /romanof/ in Czech too, with final /f/ sound just like in Russian, don't you? The spelling Romanoff is old French, in German it's Romanow. I think it's only Ukrainian, Serbo-Croatian and (Lower?) Sorbian among the Slavic languages that don't devoice a final consonants like "v". In Sorbian it's supposedly an English [w] sound, thus explaining why Slavic place names in East Germany like Grabow are pronounced /grabo/.

In Polish it's interesting you have a special -ow(ie) plural for basic family words (like ojcowie - fathers) and family names, like Romanowowie, Wettynowie, Hohenzollernowie, Habsburgowie, Windsorowie, Borgiowie (i.e. the Borgias).

[Janet Ashton]

I think it's only Ukrainian, Serbo-Croatian and (Lower?) Sorbian among the Slavic languages that don't devoice a final consonants like "v". In Sorbian it's supposedly an English [w] sound, thus explaining why Slavic place names in East Germany like Grabow are pronounced /grabo/.

In Slovene, the final v is also a w - as in Triglav (the mountain on the national flag) - pronounced Triglau. Elsewhere in words it is often a "u" sound; it's a voiced "v" before vowels and the letter r.

Totally OT, but interesting...:-) (to me, anyway)

[Ally Kumari]

The surname remaines in the "Romanov" form though. The "off" seems distinctly German (French?), while the "ov" Slavic.

But you pronounce it /romanof/ in Czech too, with final /f/ sound just like in Russian, don't you?

Actually, we pronounce it as "ov", though sometimes it´s tricky. It depends on how precise the speaker wants to be.

[Превед]

Actually, we pronounce it as "ov", though sometimes it´s tricky. It depends on how precise the speaker wants to be.

Really? Is that because it's considered a foreign name? Because I see that native Czech names ending in -ov are pronounced /of/, e.g. Český Krumlov:  [ˈtʃɛskiː ˈkrumlof].

In Slovene, the final v is also a w - as in Triglav (the mountain on the national flag) - pronounced Triglau. Elsewhere in words it is often a "u" sound; it's a voiced "v" before vowels and the letter r.

Totally OT, but interesting...:-) (to me, anyway)

It is very interesting and ironic that another Slavic language in heavy contact with German does not share the final devoicing (Auslautverhärtung) so typical of both Slavic languages and German in this case.

[Ally Kumari]

Actually, we pronounce it as "ov", though sometimes it´s tricky. It depends on how precise the speaker wants to be.

Really? Is that because it's considered a foreign name? Because I see that native Czech names ending in -ov are pronounced /of/, e.g. Český Krumlov:  [ˈtʃɛskiː ˈkrumlof].

I cannot really explain in English, but the pronunciation is something "in between" v and f. The "f" ending of words is more casual. But I am no linguist of course :-)

[Janet Ashton]

In Slovene, the final v is also a w - as in Triglav (the mountain on the national flag) - pronounced Triglau. Elsewhere in words it is often a "u" sound; it's a voiced "v" before vowels and the letter r.

Totally OT, but interesting...:-) (to me, anyway)

It is very interesting and ironic that another Slavic language in heavy contact with German does not share the final devoicing (Auslautverhärtung) so typical of both Slavic languages and German in this case.

In general, Slovene *does* do it, and quite probably under German influence - just not with the V.

Oddly, another feature it shares with Sorbian (I've just learned) is that they are the only Slavic languages to preserve the archaic Singular - Dual - Plural forms of nouns, whereas all the others use just Singular and Plural. 

I tend to like to learn languages more than study their structure so systematically, but it's amazing what digging through a few articles can tell you! :-)

[Превед]

In general, Slovene *does* do it, and quite probably under German influence - just not with the V.

No, almost all Slavic languages do it, so it can't be German influence.

Oddly, another feature it shares with Sorbian (I've just learned) is that they are the only Slavic languages to preserve the archaic Singular - Dual - Plural forms of nouns, whereas all the others use just Singular and Plural.  

Add Macedonian and the Chakavian (Istrian and Insular Dalmatian) dialect of Croatian to those, apparantly.

I tend to like to learn languages more than study their structure so systematically, but it's amazing what digging through a few articles can tell you! :-)

Since you take an interest in Sorbian, have you read this? http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=1840.msg531606#msg531606


My favourite story combining royalty and Slavic linguistics: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=1939.msg533546#msg533546

[Превед]

I think it's only Ukrainian, Serbo-Croatian and (Lower?) Sorbian among the Slavic languages that don't devoice a final consonants like "v". In Sorbian it's supposedly an English [w] sound, thus explaining why Slavic place names in East Germany like Grabow are pronounced /grabo/.

Also seen in the names of the most Sorbian of all "states", the Standesherrschaft Muskau / Mužakow, centred around Bad Muskau on the German-Polish border, and famous for its Fürst-Pückler landscape park, owned by Prince Frederik of the Netherlands and his daughter Princess Marie of Wied.

[Janet Ashton]

In general, Slovene *does* do it, and quite probably under German influence - just not with the V.

No, almost all Slavic languages do it, so it can't be German influence.

Almost all Slavic languages do it, but Slovene (or certain dialects - as it's a *highly* dialectic language, despite being spoken in such a small area geographically) apparently shares certain pronunications of relevant letters with (southern Austrian) German which are not seen its two nearest Slavic relatives (Slovak and the Croatian language).

Oddly, another feature it shares with Sorbian (I've just learned) is that they are the only Slavic languages to preserve the archaic Singular - Dual - Plural forms of nouns, whereas all the others use just Singular and Plural.  

Add Macedonian and the Chakavian (Istrian and Insular Dalmatian) dialect of Croatian to those, apparantly.

Macedonian I'd not heard about - but I have heard it suggested that it's the closest living language to Church Slavonic, so that would make sense. (Slovene is also supposed to be close to Churcvh Slavonic, but presumably in different ways - have you read about the Freising Manuscripts? - the oldest Slavic documents written in Latin script and among the oldest Slavic dicuments written anwhere, they are generally agreed to be in Slovene.)  Chakavian Croat is a "bridge" language between standard (Stokavian) Serbo-Croat on the one hand and Slovene on the other - and in the nineteeth century was often described as being a dialect of Slovene instead. That was more a matter of politics (nascent Slovene nationalism) than linguitsics...But, then, so was the decision to align the standard Croatian language with the Serbian end instead.

Thanks for the link to the stories about Sorbian and the Saxon royal fmaily - I've just snipped the rest of the post because all the quotes make it a bit confusing - I hope it comes out right.....

[Janet Ashton]

Almost all Slavic languages do it, but Slovene (or certain dialects - as it's a *highly* dialectic language, despite being spoken in such a small area geographically) apparently shares certain pronunications of relevant letters with (southern Austrian) German which are not seen its two nearest Slavic relatives (Slovak and the Croatian language).

The reverse of this (a snippet you'll probably appreciate, Превед ) is the Germanisation of the Slovene word "gradec", a fortress. This pops up in several Austrian (in the imperial sense as well as national) place names - Graz, obviously, plus Windisch Graetz [Slovenj Gradec], and also, ironically in Koeniggraetz, whose Czech name is Kralove Hradec, but whose German name includes the Slovene form instead - showing how intertwined those languages and cultures always were in Austria.

[Janet Ashton]

[ Koeniggraetz, whose Czech name is Kralove Hradec,

Hradec Kralove, even! :-)

[Превед]

have you read about the Freising Manuscripts? - the oldest Slavic documents written in Latin script and among the oldest Slavic dicuments written anwhere, they are generally agreed to be in Slovene.)

No, never, interesting.

The reverse of this (a snippet you'll probably appreciate, Превед ) is the Germanisation of the Slovene word "gradec", a fortress. This pops up in several Austrian (in the imperial sense as well as national) place names - Graz, obviously, plus Windisch Graetz [Slovenj Gradec], and also, ironically in Koeniggraetz, whose Czech name is Kralove Hradec, but whose German name includes the Slovene form instead - showing how intertwined those languages and cultures always were in Austria.

Oh, yes. Graz in Styria (Štajerski Gradec) was once even known as Deutsch-Graz, as opposed to Windisch-Gra(e)tz. The Northwestern Slavic counterpart is Garz (e.g. Garz auf Rügen), as the lack of methathesis has preserved Proto-Slavic gard (> gardec,  instead of gard > grad > gradec). The lack of methathesis in ancient Polabian and modern Kashubian is familiar from the name Stargard (= Oldenburg) in Holstein, Pomerania and Mecklenburg, where the Lordship of Stargard made up most of Mecklenburg-Strelitz.

Speaking of Northwestern etymoligical goodies:
The renowned originally Slavic Podebusk / Putbus family, a junior line of the Princes of Rügen and prominent both in Northeast Germany and medieval Denmark has a name that comes from Slavic pod buz, under the elder bush. Bismarck's wife Johanna von Puttkamer was  from Farther Pomerania and the Puttkamers might be of Slavic origin: Puttkamer < putcumer / pod-komer = under-chamberlain.

[Janet Ashton]

Oh, yes. Graz in Styria (Štajerski Gradec) was once even known as Deutsch-Graz, as opposed to Windisch-Gra(e)tz. The Northwestern Slavic counterpart is Garz (e.g. Garz auf Rügen), as the lack of methathesis has preserved Proto-Slavic gard (> gardec,  instead of gard > grad > gradec). The lack of methathesis in ancient Polabian and modern Kashubian is familiar from the name Stargard (= Oldenburg) in Holstein, Pomerania and Mecklenburg, where the Lordship of Stargard made up most of Mecklenburg-Strelitz.

Interesting - because both cities were in very mixed areas, linguistically - the lower one being a largely German-speaking town in a Slovene countryside; Graz itself and its hinterland were completely mixed. It was one of the cities whose loss to them was much-mourned by the Slovenes in 1918 when they finally gained some land named after themslves - though possibly not as much as Klagenfurt and Trieste were.

Slovene motorways sign Graz as "Gradec" and Klagenfurt as "Celovec" (not to mention Trieste as Trst and Villach as Biljak). I've also seen Austrian sources call Ljubljana "Laibach" still - and I don't know of other border areas where the relationsip is sufficiently simbiotic that this would happen without causing a riot! :-)

Ironically, the most common Slavic language heard in Graz now is probably Serbo-Croat rather than Slovene - in the Bosnian manifestatian, as lots of Bosnians have taken economic refuge there from their own appalling unemployment rates.