"Grabbing at Straws"

[Dandywell]

I would accept DNA testing, unless it was really sketchy, like  only tested by the Russian government, then the bodies mysteriously destroyed, but that's not likely to happen. But the problem is, there are no bodies that we know of.

[olga]

I would accept DNA testing, unless it was really sketchy, like  only tested by the Russian government, then the bodies mysteriously desroyed, but that's not likely to happen.

Yes, because the powers that be in Russia have SO much to lose from M/A Nikolaevna and Alexei Nikolaevich being found.

Get out of the Cold War, Dandywell.

[Annie]

I think Russia would LOVE to have them found now. Of course it would dig up the old wounds of the past, but it would also give a lot of attention to Russia in the press, there would be a new burial and lots of stories. This would generate interest in Russia and encourage tourism. At this time, it would only be an interesting and fascinating solving of a mystery. There is nothing political involved now.

[Dandywell]

Yes, because the powers that be in Russia have SO much to lose from M/A Nikolaevna and Alexei Nikolaevich being found.

Get out of the Cold War, Dandywell.

Note the 'that's not likely to happen' and the wink.

[Alexa]

I guess you'll have to explain what you mean by 'evidence'. The fact that two bodies have not been found is evidence. Why wouldn't they be with their family? Where are they? That the bolshevik lied in the first place is evidence. Could they not lie again? That the Romanovs were not "buried" in the intented place is evidence. Were the Bolsheviks lax in their attention in getting rid of the bodies? Evidence that there is a flaw in the story, something we have not been told, or evidence to prompt questions as to whether we have been told the truth.

There's speculation, and there's evidence.  The evidence (i.e. the letter written by Yurovsky) points to the fact that the entire family and their entourage were killed that night.  The missing bodies leads to speculation that this might not be accurate.  Wondering if the letter or the other documents that state the events of the night are in fact true is speculation.  

It's good to speculate, and I'm glad you posted this.  Good historians, imho, spculate all the time, and this can help uncover good pieces of information (it can also put one on the wrong track and months or years of researching a theory that's just not right).  At the same time, one needs to look at the evidence and put the pieces together to figure out what the most logical account is.  So far, the evidence points to the IF dying that night, but I love hearing theories of how they could have survived.

Alexa

[Ming]

All of this reminds me of a gal I once knew who was a great cook, but whenever someone asked for one of her recipes, she'd give it gladly...except she would deliberatly leave one or more of the ingredients and/or directions out, so whoever tried making that one dish would never get it to be as good as hers.

What I'm saying is that I think we should assume the Bolsheviks...and many other governments, including our own, at times...do NOT tell us everything that we would like to know about something, although I'm sure that's what they want us to believe.  

No, I'm not really a cynic or a skeptic; I'm just trying to live in the reality that exists.  Governments DO lie; governments DO cover up things; governments DO not tell us everything that's happening.  I used to work for the army, and, believe me, there are some things we should be HAPPY we don't know!

Anyway, the fact is that something happened to the Romanov family that last tragic night.  Not knowing the exact truth bugs the heck out of some of us, but there it is; and the mystery itself is interesting to contemplate.

Love to hear all the ideas and theories!  What an interesting board this is. Thank you, one and all, and have a joyous Christmas season.

Ming

[Alexa]

Great analogy Ming.  I think in most cases (if not all) with history, no matter how much information is available, we never get the whole truth.  I think the Romanovs are, and always will be, one of those cases.

Alexa

[AGRBear]

For those who absolutely believe the IF was executed on the night of the 16/17 July 1918,  the title of this thread "Grabbing at Straws" is acceptable wording and I find that amusing.  For those who think something else may have happen that night and the CHEKA, Soviets and Lenin then Stalin have covered up the truth, the title of this thread gives an open door to other theories.  This is marvelous.  

Thanks Danywell.

Let me give the "non-believers" a real treat for Christmas in a "speculation"  which they will have fun tearing apart like a children tearing off the wrappings of their first presents.

The "speculation":  On the night of 16 July,  as promised by the Germans, a group of rescuers appeared on the grounds of the Impatiev House.  There wasn't much of a struggle because it had been pay day and on pay day the booze flows freely from the servents to Yurovsky.....  The escape of all the prisioners was accomplished.   When  Yurovsky was set free, perhaps from ropes or a closet or maybe the room in which the IF had been held,  all h-ll broke lose.  The angry Yurovsky and the CHEKA had to come up with a story that was to cover up the escape ....  Instead of the IF and others being executed in the basement,  Yurovsky had executed "five Latvians" guards.   He then threaten all who knew about the escape that he would not think twice about killing them if they dare utter the truth.  Then,  he added, if a person was so stupid and did tell, after he killed the person who uttered the truth,  then he'd find his family and kill them, too.  A truck was ordered and the five bodies were placed on the truck. [ Later, these five bodies were found by the Four Brothers Mine by the White Intvestagators who were helped by the mysterious White officer known as Shermetevsky....]  Meanwhile, Yurovsky, who's blood pressure must have gone sky high and his bad heart must have pounded hard in his chest,  ordered some of the guards, who knew what happen, to search for the missing Romanovs and the others.....

The Romanovs and their resucers were hunted down.  How far they may have gotten is unknown.  When they were captured is not known.

Bones of nine bodies would be found in a grave in Pig's meadow....

The White Army takes Ekaterinburg and in 1918 and one of  the first investigators  Capt. Malinovsky concluded :  "As  the results of my work on this case I became convinced that the imperial family was alive.  It appeared to me that the Bolsheviks had shot someone in the room in order to simulate the murder of the imperisl family, had taken them away in the night along the Koptyaki road, also, with the purpose of simulating a murder....  That is how I thought, and it also seemed to me that everything I had observed during the investigation was a simulation of murder."

This was written by a man who was actually there.  And,  he never changed his mind about what he saw.

Is this grabbing at staws?

Happy Holidays!

AGRBear

[Dandywell]

[quote author=AGRBear
This was written by a man who was actually there.  And,  he never changed his mind about what he saw.

Is this grabbing at staws?

Happy Holidays!

AGRBear[/quote]

Can you prove he was there? (Out of curiosity, not to start anything)

[Annie]

The gov't DID lie and cover-up. They claimed only the Tsar was killed and for awhile the world believed it. What they were hiding was the fact that the entire family was dead, not the opposite!!

[Forum Admin]

Problem 1. There were no women guards, so how did so many female bodies end up in the grave?

Problem 2. the females are all related to each other.

Problem 3. The bones of one of the males is related to GD George, Nicholas' brother.

Problem 4. The blood found in the basement of the Ipatiev House was matched to the Imperial Family by Sokolov's investigation. Small fragments of the IF jewelery and possessions were also found by Sokolov.

I'll go on with more later, but am sure this is a good start.

[Dandywell]

We're grabbing at straws. What are you doing? Trying to prove something? It's like Abraham said, if they can't see it now, not even the dead rising from the grave will change their minds.

'Oh no, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
Then Abraham said, 'If they will not listen to Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone should rise from the dead.'"

(I'm being hypocritical today.)

[rskkiya]

Problem 1. There were no women guards, so how did so many female bodies end up in the grave?

Problem 2. the females are all related to each other.

Problem 3. The bones of one of the males is related to GD George, Nicholas' brother.

Problem 4. The blood found in the basement of the Ipatiev House was matched to the Imperial Family by Sokolov's investigation. Small fragments of the IF jewelery and possessions were also found by Sokolov in the basement as well as the blood.

I'll go on with more later, but am sure this is a good start.

FA This is exactly what I have tried to suggest to Agrbear as problematic for some time...Maybe she'll listen to you...(The "latvian guards" all tarted up in dresses and some smattering of jewelry is quite an amusing image!)
LOL
rskkiya

[Georgiy]

Dear AGRBear,
Is this part of what Herr XXXX told you?

[AGRBear]

Problem 1. There were no women guards, so how did so many female bodies end up in the grave?

Problem 2. the females are all related to each other.

Problem 3. The bones of one of the males is related to GD George, Nicholas' brother.

Problem 4. The blood found in the basement of the Ipatiev House was matched to the Imperial Family by Sokolov's investigation. Small fragments of the IF jewelery and possessions were also found by Sokolov.

I'll go on with more later, but am sure this is a good start.

Promblem 1.  I never speculated the five guards were women.  They were not.  They were Letts who had been part of the guard of the Impatiev House.  Their bodies were not found in Pig's Meadow.  Their bodies were found near the Four Brothers Mine just after the Whites took Ekaterinburg.

Promblem 2. , 3, and 4.   I did not suggest the bodies found in the grave in Pig's Meadow were not Nicholas II and the other eight.  Why would I?  Evdience, as we know it,  give us proof they were whom the Russians and the Americans assume they are.  There is still the  absence of two bodies, Alexei and one of the daughters whose idenity is still in question .

4. continued:  The blood found in the Impatiev House matched the Romanov's??  I'm not sure at that time people understood there were different blood types and certainly not DNA, so,  I'm not sure what you meant by this.  Please, explain farther.

Please,  go back and read my posting, again.  I think you may just jumped to the wrong conclusions or I didn't explain myself clearly enough.  If this is the case,  I hope to make my "speculation" better understood.

AGRBear

P.S.  Capt. Malinovsky of the White's Officer's Commission was one of the first investigators present in Ekaterinburg.  If anyone has anything more about him,  I'd be greatly interested.