"Grabbing at Straws"

[rskkiya]

BE NICE!  quote]

Dandywell

I think that we are all being quite civil here.

rskkiya

[rskkiya]

Agrbear
A Modest Proposal!
    Rather than continue to tease or hint, why don't you simply tell us your theory (ie: Herr X 's story ) so that we can examine it logically. If it makes historical sence - then spendid, and if not, then it was simply a charming tale told to a child...
    This tendency of yours to throw out bits and pieces is really rather insulting and a waste of time - Do you realize that many people here who may once have been intrigued by your claims, have now started to consider this whole thing to be a bit of a joke?

  rskkiya

Please consider this suggestion!

rskkiya

[Dashkova]

I am not aware of the report being in Shay McNeal's book.  If you are, could you post the page number for us, please.

Thanks

AGRBear

I gave my copy away about two years ago.  My library has it, but it's closed this week and frankly I can't waste time that way.  But yes, she did deal with this topic and from my understanding (which came from the author herself) she continues to research.  I know that Summers and Mangold also gave the "Letts" a mention, but you really need to bear in mind that the reason those bodies were included in reports were simply because they were searching the shaft for the IF and happened upon these bodies. That does *not* in any way indicate that the bodies were somehow connected with the disappearance/death of the IF.  Yes, some of their clothing and personal items were burnt at the site, but if that was done in an attempt to convince potential investigators of murder (which seems to be the case) then those who were "planting" the burnt clothes, perhaps some bodies *were* put there (but WHY five?) but that only serves to complete the picture that the Ural Soviet was making a concerted attempt to deflect attention from the *actual* burial site, and not to cover up an "escape."

And no matter *where* investigators were digging around in the area in question, plenty of bodies would have turned up.  Since they were clearing out that particular mine shaft, well, those were the bodies they came across.  Their presence -- in light of the area's high concentration of bodies over the centuries -- is of little note.

[AGRBear]

Agrbear
A Modest Proposal!
    Rather than continue to tease or hint, why don't you simply tell us your theory (ie: Herr X 's story ) so that we can examine it logically. If it makes historical sence - then spendid, and if not, then it was simply a charming tale told to a child...
    This tendency of yours to throw out bits and pieces is really rather insulting and a waste of time - Do you realize that many people here who may once have been intrigued by your claims, have now started to consider this whole thing to be a bit of a joke?

  rskkiya

Please see the dozen other threads where you've asked this question and reread my answers.  I will not repeat the answers, again.  

In 1947-8, I was told two of  Nicholas II's children escaped the execution of the communists, so, it did not surprise me when I read  in the newspapers the report which stated two of Nicholas II's childen were missing from the shallow grave revealed to the public in the 1990s.
AGRBear

AGRBear

[rskkiya]

Agrbear
I am waiting for an apology.

rskkiya

[AGRBear]

I gave my copy away about two years ago.  My library has it, but it's closed this week and frankly I can't waste time that way.  But yes, she did deal with this topic and from my understanding (which came from the author herself) she continues to research.  I know that Summers and Mangold also gave the "Letts" a mention, but you really need to bear in mind that the reason those bodies were included in reports were simply because they were searching the shaft for the IF and happened upon these bodies. That does *not* in any way indicate that the bodies were somehow connected with the disappearance/death of the IF.  Yes, some of their clothing and personal items were burnt at the site, but if that was done in an attempt to convince potential investigators of murder (which seems to be the case) then those who were "planting" the burnt clothes, perhaps some bodies *were* put there (but WHY five?) but that only serves to complete the picture that the Ural Soviet was making a concerted attempt to deflect attention from the *actual* burial site, and not to cover up an "escape."

And no matter *where* investigators were digging around in the area in question, plenty of bodies would have turned up.  Since they were clearing out that particular mine shaft, well, those were the bodies they came across.  Their presence -- in light of the area's high concentration of bodies over the centuries -- is of little note.

Thank you Dashkova for this good reply to help me think through this speculation.

 I'll get back with my reply when I have time.  Meanwhile, maybe others would like to add to Dashkova's reply with some of their own speculations or good responses like Dashkova's last posting.

AGRBear

[Forum Admin]

Sokolov pg 236:
July 27, 1918 peasants Papine and Michael Alferov went to the mine. No Lett bodies mentioned in their depositions made that same day about what they saw.
July 28, 1918, they went back with six more peasants: Babinof,  Paul Alferov, Jacob Alferov, and Nicholas and Alexander Logunov. Still no "lett bodies" mentioned in their extensive searches

[AGRBear]

Sokolov pg 236:
July 27, 1918 peasants Papine and Michael Alferov went to the mine. No Lett bodies mentioned in their depositions made that same day about what they saw.
July 28, 1918, they went back with six more peasants: Babinof,  Paul Alferov, Jacob Alferov, and Nicholas and Alexander Logunov. Still no "lett bodies" mentioned in their extensive searches

Thank you Forum Admin. for asking this question about Sokolov's report lacking the information about the five dead Letts.  I do not know the answer. I can speculate, if you're interested.

AGRBear

[Forum Admin]

Thanks, but I prefer evidence to speculations. And, its not "Sokolov's" report not having the information, it is the depostions given to the Whites 2 days after capturing Ekaterinburg that don't contain the information.
Drop a line when you have evidence.

[AGRBear]

I do not know why the men you've mention did not give any information on the five dead Letts.

The facts about the five Letts were in the 1918 report of Assistant Prosecutor Magnitsky, who was the first man to the Four Brother's Mine after the Red Army left Ekaterinburg.....  

I assume he passed this information to Capt. Malinovsky who must have looked into this information.

The White Army takes Ekaterinburg and in 1918 one the first investigator  Capt. Malinovsky concluded :  "As  the results of my work on this case I became convinced that the imperial family was alive.  It appeared to me that the Bolsheviks had shot someone in the room in order to simulate the murder of the imperisl family, had taken them away in the night along the Koptyaki road, also, with the purpose of simulating a murder....  That is how I thought, and it also seemed to me that everything I had observed during the investigation was a simulation of murder."

AGRBear

[Forum Admin]

AGR,
Not sure where you got your information, but it is not exactly correct.
The Whites took Ekaterinburg on July 25, 1918.
See above for what occurred July 27-28.
July 30 Judge Nametkin went to the mine with Dr. Derevenko, the Valet Tchemodurov and a lot of White officers who conducted a huge and thorough search of the area.
Vice-Prosecutor Magnitski from the Ekaterinburg tribunal did not show up until later the day of July 30 until after the search of the area and then the mine itself was opened and emptied in his presence. He was no where nearly "the first person" at the mine after the Whites took over.

2 men were there first on the 27th, then went back with 6 more the next day.
Also there on the 28th was the woodsman Vassili Riednikov sent by the military authorities of Verkh-Isset as a result of the declarations made to them by Papine and Alferov the day before (which don't include any dead Letts). Riednikov was accompanied by: Bozhov, Zudikine, Zubritski and Tyetyenev all of whom searched the area very carefully. Still no dead Letts in his report either.

I make a count of 16 at least, not including the unspecified White officers who all searched the area BEFORE Magnitski showed up.

[Merrique]

Psssst Annie,we also got the new Harry Potter movie.The kids just love it.

[AGRBear]

AGR,
Not sure where you got your information, but it is not exactly correct.
The Whites took Ekaterinburg on July 25, 1918.
See above for what occurred July 27-28.
July 30 Judge Nametkin went to the mine with Dr. Derevenko, the Valet Tchemodurov and a lot of White officers who conducted a huge and thorough search of the area.
Vice-Prosecutor Magnitski from the Ekaterinburg tribunal did not show up until later the day of July 30 until after the search of the area and then the mine itself was opened and emptied in his presence. He was no where nearly "the first person" at the mine after the Whites took over.

2 men were there first on the 27th, then went back with 6 more the next day.
Also there on the 28th was the woodsman Vassili Riednikov sent by the military authorities of Verkh-Isset as a result of the declarations made to them by Papine and Alferov the day before (which don't include any dead Letts). Riednikov was accompanied by: Bozhov, Zudikine, Zubritski and Tyetyenev all of whom searched the area very carefully. Still no dead Letts in his report either.

I make a count of 16 at least, not including the unspecified White officers who all searched the area BEFORE Magnitski showed up.

Vice-Prosecutor Magnitski from the Ekaterinburg tribunal did  show up on July 30  and it was then the mine itself was opened and emptied in his presence.

I mispoke when I said Magnitski was the first, he was one of the first officals taking part in the investigation.

And, yes, Magnitski was a day later than Nametkin, who was of the Civilian Court and deputy of the local Prosecution.

Did Magnitski, who was Vice-Prosecutor,  hold authority over the Civilian Court and Deputy Nametkin's superior?  By the way which was Nametkin, a Deputy or a Judge?  Or is this the same? Or did his titles change....?  Sorry,  I'm not familiar with the Russian courts.

Magnitski gathered evidence from more than just 16 men whom Admin. Forum mentions.  And, he made his report which he gave to his superior.  This report held in it the findings of 5 dead Letts.

Is there evidence that he lied or invented evidence?

When did Malinovsky appear?  I thought he was part of Nametkin's investigation team....   Is there evidence that he lied or invented evidence?


AGRBear

[rskkiya]

Psssst Annie,we also got the new Harry Potter movie.The kids just love it.

Annie and Merique, Hello!
  Well - you two ought to bring NAOTMAA and the dvds over to my place ...We can order Chinese take-away!Between films, we can discuss the whole silly "letts" question, and as NAOTMAA are now immortals, they are sure to have all the good gossip on this topic!  

LOL
rskkiya
{Not a Harry Potter Fan, but that's OK!  }

[Alice]

Annie and Merique, Hello!
   Well - you two ought to bring NAOTMAA and the dvds over to my place ...We can order Chinese take-away!Between films, we can discuss the whole silly "letts" question, and as NAOTMAA are now immortals, they are sure to have all the good gossip on this topic!  

LOL
rskkiya
{Not a Harry Potter Fan, but that's OK!  }

Count me in, this sounds fun!  

The kids in my English class watched Harry the other day . . . they love it also. It's amazing how quickly pencils can become "wands".