Julia P. Gelardi: From Splendor to Revolution: The Romanov Women, 1847-1928

[grandduchessella]

Well, Lord knows that inflammatory topic is for its own thread!    I have my own personal views on that which I have shared on it's own thread. I would say that I think much of the aid GV provided came after the N&A disaster which most likely haunted him--ie his actions regarding his Greek cousin Andrew, faced with the firing squad and his Crimea-stranded Romanov relations. Financial aid I think just came because of his close relationships with those relatives--Xenia, MA, MF, etc....

[Alixz]

As much as I like Gelardi and her style, I am having problems keeping on track with this book.  I just passed Rasputin's murder and I find it tough going.

On the one hand, of course, she uses a lot of the long regarded "truths" about what happened to the Russian, Greek and Coburg families.  On the other hand there is a lot of stuff that I find interesting and new.

She quotes constantly and sources well.  I haven't had time to go over some of the sources yet, but I know that they will conflict with Margarita's book and her sources.

One of the things that she does do is to intertwine the relationships of the three families for example by calling Marie Feodorovna Queen Olga's sister in law.  Which she was, but she usually isn't referred to in that way.  It took me a minute to remember that George I of Greece was actually William of Denmark and the brother of Marie Feodorovna.

That kind of thing.

[Alixz]

I never think of Marie Pavlovna (the younger) as Queen Olga's granddaughter, but, of course, she was.  The daughter of Olga's daughter Alexandra and Grand Duke Paul, brother of Alexander III.

That makes Marie Pavlovna (the younger) a first cousin to Prince Phillip the husband of Queen Elizabeth.

Olga's sons were Constantine, Nicholas, George, Christopher and Andrew.  Her daughters were Olga and Alexandra and Marie.

Andrew is the father of Prince Philip (hence QEII and Phillip have a son named Andrew) and Alexandra had a daughter Marie Pavlovna and a son Dmitri Pavlovich.

So Prince Phillip, the Duke of Edinburgh was first cousin to Grand Duke Dimitri Pavlovich who participated in the murder of Rasputin.

This book had made me think in this way.  I have not thought in this way before about the Greek Royal family and their relationships to the Russians and the British.

[royaltybuff]

Exactly, Alixz! The interrelations boggles my mind and is so fascinating to me. I remember the day it actually dawned on me that Prince Phillip was first cousins with Grand Duchess Marie and Grand Duke Dmitri. I think I followed my husband around and related the story five times until I saw his eyes roll back in his head. 

Another thing that I liked about the book is the post-revolution chapters and what the Imperial family who were left in Russia endured. I have never studied the human toll of their treatment and I guess I never even thought about it because I knew they eventually got out. I never put a human face on it before and never considered what they went through - other than the family members who where murdered. I have read so much about the revolution that info was rehashed to me, but it was interesting to gain a new perspective on the aftermath.

[Alixz]

RoyaltyBuff - Have you ever tried The Flight Of The Romanovs by Perry and Pleshakov?  That book goes into what happened to the family members who escaped Russia and the revolution.

This is not The Fate of The Romanovs by King & Wilson.

We tend to call Fate FOTR, but Flight has the same initials.

I enjoyed Flight of the Romanovs very much.

[royaltybuff]

Thanks, Alixz. I will find it and give it a read.

[grandduchessella]

Flight was a very interesting book dealing with lesser known Romanovs and a less-covered history. Here's its thread:

http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=458.0

I think it's still pretty easy (and inexpensive) to obtain.

[grandduchessella]

As much as I like Gelardi and her style, I am having problems keeping on track with this book.  I just passed Rasputin's murder and I find it tough going.

On the one hand, of course, she uses a lot of the long regarded "truths" about what happened to the Russian, Greek and Coburg families.  On the other hand there is a lot of stuff that I find interesting and new.

She quotes constantly and sources well.  I haven't had time to go over some of the sources yet, but I know that they will conflict with Margarita's book and her sources.

One of the things that she does do is to intertwine the relationships of the three families for example by calling Marie Feodorovna Queen Olga's sister in law.  Which she was, but she usually isn't referred to in that way.  It took me a minute to remember that George I of Greece was actually William of Denmark and the brother of Marie Feodorovna.

That kind of thing.

Yes, MF was SIL to Olga, Miechen and Marie A. She's sort of the tie that binds. Olga & Miechen were later tied together by their children (Nicholas & Helen respectively) and Miechen and Marie A through their children (Kyril & Victoria Melita). MA almost tied together with MF through Michael & Beatrice but that was doomed.

[grandduchessella]

Using these 4 women, first cousins included:

MF/Olga: Nicholas II, George, Xenia, Olga, Michael/ Constantine I, George, Nicholas, Alexandra, Marie, Andrew, Christopher
MF/MA: Nicholas II, George, Xenia, Olga, Michael/Alfred, Missy, Victoria Melita, Sandra, Beatrice
MF/Miechen: Nicholas II, George, Xenia, Olga, Michael/Kyril, Boris, Andrew, Helen
MA/Miechen: Alfred, Missy, Victoria Melita, Sandra, Beatrice/Kyril, Boris, Andrew, Helen

[Alixz]

Too bad that Michael and Bee were doomed.  I know that first cousins could not marry according to the Orthodox Church and they are correct in that there is danger in too close a relationship.  However, if Michael had marred equally, then the whole Natasha affair wouldn't have come into play.

So many mistakes were made by all parties not just Nicholas and Alexandra.  I actually saw Marie Feodorovna as part of the bigger problem.  She came across as an interfering old biddy in politics and in her family.  Marie Pavlovna (the elder) came across as much more sympathetic than usual and Marie Alexandrovna was more like a Grand Duchess and less like a peasant with a title as she is usually portrayed. (shoes that had neither a right or a left and things like that)

I finished the book last night and I could feel the destruction of Imperial Russia as I read of the destruction of the Romanov family and the Imperial way of life.  From what observers who were there say, St Petersburg after the revolution was a horrible place and the destruction of the buildings and infrastructure was massive.

The Soviets were so intent on moving the capital to Moscow and then fighting the Whites, they let so much go.  Of course, the Soviets never thought that they would care about the "dregs" of Imperial Russia.

I have always seen a facial resemblance between Queen Olga of Greece (when she was younger) and Marie Pavlovna (the younger) now that I remember that Marie was Olga's granddaughter, I see why.  Olga was a Romanov as was Marie's father and Olga's daughter was her mother so the family facial resemblance (to me anyway) make more sense.

I said earlier that I found the book tough going in some spots, but over all, I would recommend it.

[Alixz]

I was thinking about my saying that Marie Feodorovna was an interfering old biddy.

I know that those who knew her and worshiped her always said how gracious and amazing she was as an Empress.

I was thinking about those who wrote that she would feel insulted if someone didn't kiss her hand or if someone told her to pack (like get going, lady, the Soviets are at the door). Then she kept the Captain and crew of the Marlborough waiting nervously for her as if she had all the time in the world to get to the ship.  She was endangering not only the crew of the British ship but everyone whom she insisted (so graciously) be taken with her. I wonder what she would have done if someone had had the nerve to tell her to get the lead out!

She ruled the roost and she knew it.  She didn't like anyone to interfere with her "rights" as Empress and that (to me) was why she and Alix never got along.

Marie Feodorovna could be interfering and irascible and intimidating and intolerant and a bunch of other words that begin with "i" that I can't think of right now.

My understanding of her is that she was sweet and gracious if you did things her way, but she would make a fearsome enemy if you didn't.

I always remember that those who wrote glowingly of her worshiped the old Imperial way of life and she was the figurehead of it.

She trampled all over Alix and her own daughter Olga Alexandrovna.  Authors make excuses for that saying that Queen Alexandra was her sister and she acted much the same.  Hogwash!  She arranged marriages and forbid them with equal ease (again much like Queen Victoria and Queen Alexandra) without a thought to how the young people felt.  But that doesn't make it right.

I just don't see much to recommend her as a nice person.  She may have been a great Empress, but even when that should have ended, she wouldn't let it go and continued to interfere in the lives of her family and the political world as well.

[Svetabel]

I was thinking about my saying that Marie Feodorovna was an interfering old biddy.

I know that those who knew her and worshiped her always said how gracious and amazing she was as an Empress.

I was thinking about those who wrote that she would feel insulted if someone didn't kiss her hand or if someone told her to pack (like get going, lady, the Soviets are at the door). Then she kept the Captain and crew of the Marlborough waiting nervously for her as if she had all the time in the world to get to the ship.  She was endangering not only the crew of the British ship but everyone whom she insisted (so graciously) be taken with her. I wonder what she would have done if someone had had the nerve to tell her to get the lead out!

She ruled the roost and she knew it.  She didn't like anyone to interfere with her "rights" as Empress and that (to me) was why she and Alix never got along.

Marie Feodorovna could be interfering and irascible and intimidating and intolerant and a bunch of other words that begin with "i" that I can't think of right now.

My understanding of her is that she was sweet and gracious if you did things her way, but she would make a fearsome enemy if you didn't.

I always remember that those who wrote glowingly of her worshiped the old Imperial way of life and she was the figurehead of it.

She trampled all over Alix and her own daughter Olga Alexandrovna.  Authors make excuses for that saying that Queen Alexandra was her sister and she acted much the same.  Hogwash!  She arranged marriages and forbid them with equal ease (again much like Queen Victoria and Queen Alexandra) without a thought to how the young people felt.  But that doesn't make it right.

I just don't see much to recommend her as a nice person.  She may have been a great Empress, but even when that should have ended, she wouldn't let it go and continued to interfere in the lives of her family and the political world as well.

Exactly my point of view on Empress MF. I came to the same conclusions after reading her diaries of 1914-1923 years.


I still can't decide: buy or not to buy this Romanov Women book. But thanks to all for their opinions, very interesting discussion.

[Alixz]

Oh, I'm glad that I bought it.  It put a lot of relationships into perspective.  It also realigned my view of all four women as I said in an earlier post.

There wasn't much new in the way of historical information that can't be found in other books, but some of the information was presented differently and that helped.

Gelardi passed over some of the important things that happened to these ladies.  I can't think of exact situations right now, but I remember expecting to read on to the next important point and found that it wasn't there.  Or because Gelardi was concentrating on the four ladies, she glossed over the importance of things that happened to those around them.  Things that I felt directly related to the decisions that the ladies made for themselves and their families.

I didn't pay full price for the book.  I think I got it from Amazon.com US, but I know that I got a pretty good deal.

[Eddie_uk]

I just don't see much to recommend her as a nice person. She may have been a great Empress, but even when that should have ended, she wouldn't let it go and continued to interfere in the lives of her family and the political world as well.

The fact that she stated quite clearly that she would not leave Yalta before everyone else had been evacuated (the ship was anchored for 3 days in the end), as well as bringing countless others on board the Marlborough too shows a less selfish & kind & caring side IMO.

Also being Empress of Russia you can't really blame her for getting used to having things her own way! Plus at  71 y.o. I wouldn't begrudge her that.

Also leaving her homeland of 50 years & not wanting to leave personal possesions behind (bad enough losing ones home) I can hardly blame her for taking her time. Plus as I have said even after Empress Marie embarked the ship did not leave for 3 days as they still had work to do.

Also with Russia falling apart I can't blame her for attempting to interfere in politics. It would have been awful to just sit back & watch.

[LisaDavidson]

To reference another recent book, Maria Feodorovna was not always loyal to her son, The Emperor Nicholas II during the latter part of his reign according to Margarita Nelipa in "The Murder of Grigori Rasputin". This disloyalty cannot be explained away or overlooked - it was part of the Revolution of February 1917.