Author Topic: Russia No Longer Free?  (Read 13298 times)

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Dashkova

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2005, 05:48:24 AM »
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Er, returning to the coup question - has anyone else heard these rumors and what do you think? Would a coup against Putin be a good thing for Russia at this point or just another major setback on the road to democracy?

P.S. Intellectual curiosity is never a waste of time.


I wouldn't call a discussion based on an odd assumption (that Russia was, is or wants to be "on the road to Democracy" -- they're not Crosby and Hope -- )intellectual curiosity.  Not to mention assumptions about Iraq.

But for heaven's sake, to each his own! I'm sure there are others who will be happy to hold forth (biases firmly in hand) and predict Russia's future and how things should "best  be handled," etc...  It won't do a damn bit of good but Russians reading such discussions will get a derisive laugh or two from it.

Elisabeth

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2005, 06:03:25 AM »
Derision never solved anything. It's just another way of feeling morally superior to someone else. You don't have to respect my views, but I hardly think you can claim to speak for all Russians, any more than I would ever dare to claim that I spoke for all Americans!

Anyway, much to my regret, another discussion has once again descended into mudslinging, - just when I was hoping that others would get involved and share their opinions with us. Not much chance of that happening now. I wish we could all keep a civil tongue in our heads.

Dashkova

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2005, 06:57:07 AM »
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Derision never solved anything. It's just another way of feeling morally superior to someone else. You don't have to respect my views, but I hardly think you can claim to speak for all Russians, any more than I would ever dare to claim that I spoke for all Americans!

Anyway, much to my regret, another discussion has once again descended into mudslinging, - just when I was hoping that others would get involved and share their opinions with us. Not much chance of that happening now. I wish we could all keep a civil tongue in our heads.


Aha! In a rather obtuse fashion, something you wrote makes my point.  Derision may not solve anything, but the thing is, as most Russians (as most ANY nationality)  would laugh derisively simply because their issues are NOT for outsiders to "solve."  Do you recall how well the recent advice from Britain went over with Americans?

Bottom line, it's not our business what other countries do. To discuss it as if it *is* our business is wildly presumptuous. Some may choose anyway to discuss it in a public forum, of course, but that doesn't make it right, nor can such participants expect citizens of the country being discussed to be anything short of derisive.

Derision is expressed precisely *because* (and probably to prevent!) of the notion that outsiders are trying to "solve things" that are actually none of their affairs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Dashkova »

Elisabeth

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2005, 07:30:36 AM »
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Aha! In a rather obtuse fashion, something you wrote makes my point.  Derision may not solve anything, but the thing is, as most Russians (as most ANY nationality)  would laugh derisively simply because their issues are NOT for outsiders to "solve."  Do you recall how well the recent advice from Britain went over with Americans?

Bottom line, it's not our business what other countries do. To discuss it as if it *is* our business is wildly presumptuous. Some may choose anyway to discuss it in a public forum, of course, but that doesn't make it right, nor can such participants expect citizens of the country being discussed to be anything short of derisive.

Derision is expressed precisely *because* (and probably to prevent!) of the notion that outsiders are trying to "solve things" that are actually none of their affairs.


Excuse me, Dashkova, but I believe my point was that derision never facilitates an intellectual argument. It ends it. Because derision is not only the height of rudeness, it is also anti-intellectual. It is the refuge of those who prefer the personal attack to the real discussion.

I would never presume to "solve" Russia's problems. I have yet to encounter anyone, either in history books or in life, who has ever been able to solve the myriad, on-going problems of that nation.

But for some obscure reason you now feel entitled to forbid all of us who are not Russian to refrain from offering any opinions on contemporary Russia whatsoever. This is as anti-intellectual as it gets. And I categorically refuse to be told to shut up, in so many words, by you or anyone else.

Dashkova

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2005, 07:34:17 AM »
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Excuse me, Dashkova, but I believe my point was that derision never facilitates an intellectual argument. It ends it. Because derision is not only the height of rudeness, it is also anti-intellectual. It is the refuge of those who prefer the personal attack to the real discussion.

I would never presume to "solve" Russia's problems. I have yet to encounter anyone, either in history books or in life, who has ever been able to solve the myriad, on-going problems of that nation.

But for some obscure reason you now feel entitled to forbid all of us who are not Russian to refrain from offering any opinions on contemporary Russia whatsoever. This is as anti-intellectual as it gets. And I categorically refuse to be told to shut up, in so many words, by you or anyone else.


Aha! In a rather obtuse fashion, something you wrote makes my point.  Derision may not solve anything, but the thing is, as most Russians (as most ANY nationality)  would laugh derisively simply because their issues are NOT for outsiders to "solve."  Do you recall how well the recent advice from Britain went over with Americans?

Bottom line, it's not our business what other countries do. To discuss it as if it *is* our business is wildly presumptuous. Some may choose anyway to discuss it in a public forum, of course, but that doesn't make it right, nor can such participants expect citizens of the country being discussed to be anything short of derisive.

Derision is expressed precisely *because* (and probably to prevent!) of the notion that outsiders are trying to "solve things" that are actually none of their affairs.


helenazar

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2005, 09:27:44 AM »
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...American culture.


That's sort of an oxymoron, isn't it?  ;) I am not anti-American, honest, but "American culture"?  ;D

helenazar

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2005, 09:31:13 AM »
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... if you compare capitals, Moscow BY FAR beats it's fellows in the Baltics and Eastern Europe.


You're kidding. They must not be doing well at all then, (IMHO).

Jmentanko

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2005, 09:36:20 AM »
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I've lived in Russia long enough to understand that, unless you're an oposing politician, this so-called "lack of freedom" doesn't affect you much. I've felt more "free" in Russia than I did in the U.S. In fact, this bit here -

Hmm, "unless you are an opposing politician." See, I think that that statement really speaks for itself.

BTW, its interesting how some people will criticize Russia's current "democratic" government when it's compared with the USSR, but call it "free" when it's compared with the USA. Truly an interesting phenomenon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Jmentanko »

helenazar

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2005, 10:17:59 AM »
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... politically someone will always be "not free".

 This is true.

helenazar

  • Guest
Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2005, 10:59:00 AM »
I have never been to any of the other Eastern Europe capitals but I have been to Moscow, and it was not a pretty picture (to me). I went to visit a residential area and someone's private flat - this was supposed to be one of the better set-ups, and I was sort of horrified. I am not especially "spoiled", but if that was "doing well" then I am afraid to see what is "not doing so well"  :o. Again, this is of course just my own opinion.

Jmentanko

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2005, 11:08:39 AM »
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Then again, there will always be an opposing politician. Just because a politican doesn't feel free, doesn't mean the country isn't free -- that's just politics. And politically someone will always be "not free".

We're not talking about the way an individual "feels," there are certaintly many people that claim to be oppressed while quite the opposite is true. We're talking about simple facts.
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Well, maybe if you stop comparing things that cannot be compared, this will seem like a perfectly normal thing.

I was simply pointing out an interesting attitude among some people.

helenazar

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2005, 11:17:53 AM »
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We're not talking about the way an individual "feels," there are certaintly many people that claim to be oppressed while quite the opposite is true. We're talking about simple facts.
 But JM, often facts can be based on subjective perception...

Jmentanko

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2005, 11:27:02 AM »
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 But JM, often facts can be based on subjective perception...

That is why, dear Helen, we hopefully get enough subjective opinions/facts together to make one big ~truth~. Besides, I'm pretty sure Freedom House is non-partisan.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Jmentanko »

rskkiya

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Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2005, 11:31:32 AM »
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Yet some more anti-American diatribe. Jeez, I almost feel sory for the "Great Satan."


JM
Perhaps you don't realize just how dreadful this  vulgarly 'jingoistic' comment sounds...
Please reconsider the manner in which you post your comments.

rskkiya

Jmentanko

  • Guest
Re: Russia No Longer Free?
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2005, 11:36:41 AM »
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JM
Perhaps you don't realize just how dreadful this  vulgarly 'jingoistic' comment sounds...
Please reconsider the manner in which you post your comments.

rskkiya

Oh, and here I was thinking that I was only going along with the general tone of the preceeding comment. Ah, but thank you for pointing out my "faults," rskkiya, I can always depend on you for that! :)