Author Topic: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II  (Read 241508 times)

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Princess of Cupertino

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #150 on: January 01, 2012, 04:53:40 PM »
I just visited Mayerling - quite a sad place. The lack of English in the exhibit was a little frustrating. The tour guide says everything you heard about Mayerling is a fabrication, because all the family members have sworn secrecy over it. It still seems the suicide pact the most plausible one so far. would you agree?

timfromengland

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #151 on: March 22, 2012, 06:06:30 PM »
Was nt Mayerling demolished  and a monastery  ( or nunnery ) built on the site ?

timfromengland

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #152 on: March 22, 2012, 06:16:08 PM »
Not sure how many times Rudolf met up with  King Ludvig, but I think they got
on well .. I think  Rudolf was fond of his eccentric  "uncle"  and of course  the King loved   the son of his dear cousin  Elizabeth.

Rudolf must... like  his mother..... have been saddened by the tragic suicide of the King.

As the years went  by  Rudolf  felt he had achieved nothing,  that  he  was in a loveless marriage  and  ... perhaps....
   he also   felt that the Austrian Empire was in  irreversable decline ....

Somehow , against this background he decided   that suicide was the answer and  spoke about it  to
some of his female aquaintances.

 It is sad that  his life ended  in that way  and  sad too that just before his  death.... just like King Ludvig ...
he  committed murder.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 06:19:16 PM by heavensent »

Princess of Cupertino

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #153 on: March 23, 2012, 11:51:58 AM »
Here're some pictures I took

This room remains as Rudolph's time


Mary Vetsera's coffin


Exhibit at Mayerling though all in German


The chapel - the room Rudolph was found now stands an altar





timfromengland

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #154 on: April 13, 2012, 03:04:40 PM »
Maybe  the Prince of Wales  saw a lot of himself in Rudolf,  they were both
self indulgent , louche,  womanizers.... both quite immoral  .... both  men at the
 very  top of perhaps the greatest monarchies in Europe.

This Royal Decadence   at the height of the Victorian Age when religion and morality had very real  meaning   to people  in society.

   The two  Royal rogues were good friends and in fact it was the Prince of Wales who
pointed out  Mary  Vetsera  as a young beauty   to Rudolf   when they were at the races   together.
 It was the Prince of Wales  who  brought her to Rudolf's attention.

aor

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #155 on: April 14, 2012, 06:37:03 AM »
So many things were 'stacked' against Rudolph. He became who he was because of his parents and the circle around them. I very strongly believe that he, like Edward VII, would have made a good Monarch. Neither FJ or QV involved their Heir in the 'business' of 'ruling', they each liked to keep that position to themselves and held on to it for dear life! FJ was stuck in the past and was afraid of losing his precious Empire. At least QV had Prince Albert to guide her and brought England into the 'light', FJ was stuck with an unstable Consort and even if she would not have been mentally unstable, she was not allowed to mingle in politics. 
I think Rudolph is judged to harsh by history and this whole 'Mayerling Affair' stinks..........As long as the House of Habsburg keeps the secret, we will never find out what really happened. I myself keep wondering what the Vatican still has in it's Archives.............

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #156 on: April 14, 2012, 12:56:49 PM »
I don't think there is any serious possibility of Rudolf having fathered Mary Vetsera, simply on the basis of dates. Mary was born on 19 March 1871, Rudolf on 21 August 1858, so he would have been 11 at the time of her conception!

Ann

FlashlightReader

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #157 on: September 25, 2012, 07:13:02 PM »
No one seems to have posted here for a while. I am looking for information on Rudolph and was wondering if anyone might be patient enough to take on some on my questions? If so could you please PM me? I don't want to flood the board.

Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #158 on: September 26, 2012, 01:12:47 AM »
Please feel free to flood this board -- it's dry enough to soak it all up.   :)

aor

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #159 on: September 26, 2012, 04:44:38 AM »
so dry, there is not even enough tittle tattle to go around........... :) let us have some meat to chew on!!!

FlashlightReader

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #160 on: September 26, 2012, 05:55:14 PM »
Well so long as no one minds... :)

I don't know a lot about Rudolph so I apologize if these questions are basic or naive.

1. Most of the material I've read claims he was something of a womanizer, but all come up short after naming the Vetseras and Caspar. What's the deal?
2. Related to the first question, but again several books claim he fathered several illegitimate children. Are any of them known?
3. What's the deal with the ring? Fact, rumor, romantic fantasy, what?

I'll leave it at three for now but I'd be interested to know anything you might have to share.

Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #161 on: October 01, 2012, 11:53:16 AM »
Welcome FlashlightReader and those are all great questions.   I just returned from vacation but will give your questions some thought and see if I might remember some answers, and as with so many things concerning Rudolph, there are no clear answers.

FlashlightReader

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #162 on: October 01, 2012, 06:42:37 PM »
No worries! Take your time but thank you for posting a reply in the meantime.

Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #163 on: October 07, 2012, 11:23:40 PM »

I don't know a lot about Rudolph so I apologize if these questions are basic or naive.


The history of Rudolph is fascinating since it relates to so much else and I believe a terrible injustice was done to him.   There's a lot of information in this thread and part 1 -- I read most every book I could find when posting my conclusions/summaries in these 2 threads.


1. Most of the material I've read claims he was something of a womanizer, but all come up short after naming the Vetseras and Caspar. What's the deal?


There is not a lot of evidence Rudolph was a real womanizer.  It's even unsure if or how involved he was with the younger Vetsera.  There's a couple good sources that said the mother Vetsera showed him the way when he was a boy of 12 or 13.  Then the existence of Caspar as his girlfriend is certain.  Several good reports told of a warm and close marriage in the early years between Rudolph and Stephanie.  All the rest is speculation.  As described above in detail, I'm convinced Bismarck had Rudolph killed, and since he didn't want a martyr, he made sure he destroyed Rudolph's reputation first.  One of the better books that was mostly ignored was one written by his private secretary some time after the incident at Mayerling.


2. Related to the first question, but again several books claim he fathered several illegitimate children. Are any of them known?


There's a book called "He did not die at Mayerling" which was written by someone who claimed to be a son of Rudolph.  I didn't find it all that credible.  Another claim was a son by some Russian princess and after Rudolph's death, FJ apparently hired some notable civil war general to track down this son.  This could have been the result of strong suggestions misleading FJ.   For some reason, nothing ever came of it although the woman and her son were found at least I think from what I vaguely remember.   I seem to remember another one mentioned in Part 1 of this thread.


3. What's the deal with the ring? Fact, rumor, romantic fantasy, what?


Are you referring to the bronze ring Rudolph supposedly gave MV?  One of the strangest things I noted about all reports of them is that he just met her a few months before falling madly in love and ending it all in bloody glory.  Rudolph had always known MV.  Her Baltazzi uncles were connected with the FJ and Sisi -- I think taking care of their horses or something, but they were a fixed part of Rudolph's childhood, as was  MV and her mother.  Some claim it was the Prince of Wales who introduced them, but it wasn't.  The POW did draw Rudolph's attention to MV, and in so doing, wrote in his diary that Rudolph's attitude was dismissive with some disdain.  For some reason, probably other than romance, MV had a tight hold over Rudolph.  She might have been one of Bismarck's unwitting pawns..........but how is a wild guess. 

So FlashlightReader, any opinions yet?   :)

FlashlightReader

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #164 on: October 08, 2012, 11:13:47 AM »
Nothing conclusive beyond the pure absurdity of the Romeo and Juliet angle Pezzazz, but I knew that before I started. lol.

Yes that is the ring I was referring to. Many sources cite the exchange of such a ring but no one seems to know anything about it. One would think that someone would know something but thus far I haven't been able to locate one first hand account of its existence. I don't believe there was a love connection between CPR and MV. He might have found her attentions flattering considering his relatively small circle of influence at court, but I think anything beyond that implausible. I tend to think she pursued a relationship out of infatuation, but again, that's just me.

Several individuals claim to be related to the Prince through illegitimate children, but here again I tend to disregard the claims. I view them much like the Romanovs claimants, fortune hunters looking for a pot of gold. Again there are several claims but nothing concrete to fall back on.

Silly as it sounds I hadn't given much thought to Rudolph's relationships with women until I stumbled over this: http://www.amazon.de/Frauen-Kronprinz-Rudolf-Kaiserin-Elisabeth/dp/3218007380/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_11. Acquiring it would be a feat of sorts but even if I could manage it, I unfortunately can't read German.