Author Topic: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II  (Read 241502 times)

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Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #165 on: October 08, 2012, 01:44:38 PM »
Rudolph's cousin Marie Larisch in her My Past (available online for free) did mention I believe the bronze ring -- either that or in one of her other writings.

There's very few original first hand experiences written into books about this subject -- and if they differ from the official version tend to be ignored.

From Tales from the Vienna Woods: The Man who would have been Emperor

In retrospect, after viewing the horrendous world events which followed, it now seems more than
reasonable that, for political reasons, a third party or parties committed the murders, killing Vetsera
simply to silence her and to cover up the political nature of a criminal assassination. It appeared that
Marie had been killed several hours before Rudolf, and perhaps he was forced to watch her brutal,
quietly inflicted death, which forensic analysis generally concludes was probably from beating, not
gunshots. Furthermore, Rudolf's alleged "suicide letter" to his wife could have been written under
duress. In it, he bids farewell to her and his friends, saying that "only death can save his good name",
but it does not give a reason why he killed himself, and in fact makes no mention of suicide or of
Marie. In any case, how would a double-suicide or murder-suicide "save his good name"?

Evidence in reports made at the time of the deaths stated that his body showed evidence of a major
violent struggle. The body of the Crown Prince wore gloves at his funeral and his mother was not
allowed to see his hands, since they were supposedly injured and possibly covered with defensive
wounds. This also resembles what Empress Zita said about the events. All the same, the exact cause
and circumstances of Rudolf's death remain a mystery to this day.

Princess of Cupertino

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #166 on: October 08, 2012, 09:22:03 PM »
One way or another, I found Rudolf the most tragic Habsburg. He never had the affection and approval that he craved from his parents. And he had a loveless marriage and no heir and future to look forward to. He suffered physically from STD. Since he was never religious, I think a suicide was a logical end to his sad life.

Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #167 on: October 08, 2012, 10:15:44 PM »
Rudolph wasn't as down and out as someone wanted everyone to believe.  He was holding about 200 audiences per week up till his death -- he was actively involved and enthusiastic about many projects.  He had more of his parents love than popular scuttlebutt claimed.  There's more evidence against his suicide than for it.

Princess of Cupertino

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #168 on: October 08, 2012, 11:59:26 PM »
Pezzazz,

I'd be very interested to hear more details - the more evidence against his suicide

aor

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #169 on: October 09, 2012, 05:17:59 AM »
I firmly believe that there was no murder-suicide.....He was 'eliminated'! BUT, less the House of Habsburg gives a full account of the real 'truth', we will never know. In the Larisch books, she not only points to the bronze ring, she also mentions a box that was entrusted to her by her cousin and later taken from her by Johan Salvator, who most conviently went away with his wife and was presumed to have died at sea. However, there are accounts of Salvator being in Canada and the return of a box several years ago to the Habsburg from Cananda. I would love to have access to the Vatican Archives.......... as more then likely, answers could be fond. I do tend to believe the Empress Zita account.


Princess of Cupertino

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #170 on: October 09, 2012, 06:40:48 PM »
I firmly believe that there was no murder-suicide.....He was 'eliminated'! BUT, less the House of Habsburg gives a full account of the real 'truth', we will never know. In the Larisch books, she not only points to the bronze ring, she also mentions a box that was entrusted to her by her cousin and later taken from her by Johan Salvator, who most conviently went away with his wife and was presumed to have died at sea. However, there are accounts of Salvator being in Canada and the return of a box several years ago to the Habsburg from Cananda. I would love to have access to the Vatican Archives.......... as more then likely, answers could be fond. I do tend to believe the Empress Zita account.



If FJ started WWI after Franz Ferdinand's assassination why would he remain silent over the murder of his own son?

aor

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #171 on: October 10, 2012, 05:45:52 AM »

If FJ started WWI after Franz Ferdinand's assassination why would he remain silent over the murder of his own son?
[/quote]

why? Germany was involved as a 'partner in crime'.......... How could he reveal as he needed the Germans! The murder of the Archduke Ferdinand and his spouse was not the cause WW1 was started, it was just a 'valid' excuse and it provided the downfall of the Empire. FJ would have been better off involving his only son in politics instead of hoarding the crown and abstaining from living in the past.

Offline Yelena Aleksandrovna

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #172 on: October 10, 2012, 03:11:36 PM »
... He had more of his parents love than popular scuttlebutt claimed.  There's more evidence against his suicide than for it.

I'm not saying that Sissi and Franz Joseph did not love him, it's only that they always seemed to be very cold towards him... he always looked for his mother's love but she didn't show much interest for Rudolph -not minding what he did, his younger sister always was the first- until he was dead -in one way I think that she felt guilty-. About his father, he seemed to be a good parent but in the last years the relationship seemed to get a bit "damaged". So I want that you can tell more about this topic, I got very interested and I want to know more. All the limited accounts that I know show that idea of Rudolph being always neglected by his parents.

I also think that the suicide theory isn't likely, I tend to think that someone assasinated him. But it is something that possibly we'll never know well.
There are many stupid theories about who would have killed Rudolph, time ago I read a forum where a person claimed that the Emperor Franz Joseph himself ordered to kill Rudolph because he considered his son very dangerous for his liberal ideas -as well as the idea that Rudolph was planning a coup d'etat against his father-... and this person continued claiming that FJ was also responsible of the death of his wife!!! It's really silly!!
« Last Edit: October 10, 2012, 03:16:39 PM by Yelena Aleksandrovna »

Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #173 on: October 11, 2012, 01:45:50 PM »

If FJ started WWI after Franz Ferdinand's assassination why would he remain silent over the murder of his own son?

Naturally, that is a very good question.  Now if the Germans (Bismarck) had Rudolph killed, does anyone think they would have made that fact known to FJ?  No, or course not since FJ was a proud emperor and loved his son in his own way.   Even with being partners of Germany, FJ would never have let that slide.  So how could someone get around the objections of the Austrian Royal Family to just accepting the death of Rudolph as being murder-suicide if there was any doubt?

Take a look at the facts we do have, and one in particular always made an impression on me.  Those closest to Rudolph have all said something similar:  ~The truth is so much worse~ than the official finding of murder-suicide.  This was claimed not only by FJ himself, but also by Marie-Valerie and Rudolph's two closest companions that night, his brother-in-law Prince Philip and Count Hoyos, among others.  Now the murder of a young, almost under-age mistress by a married man who then kills himself is quite bad.  Although it can be given a certain romantic spin effectively exploited in later movies, it had to be totally bad from the point of view of the Austrian Royal Family at that time.

What could have happened as alleged by those present (Prince Philip and Count Hoyos) that would have been so much worse than murder-suicide?   Any guesses anyone?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2012, 02:16:57 PM by Pezzazz »

Princess of Cupertino

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #174 on: October 11, 2012, 11:06:22 PM »
I thought at the time the official truth was that he had a heart attack or was temporarily insane and committed suicide. The fact that he killed MV first was not known to the public. Therefore THAT (he killed MV) was much worst. That's how I interpreted it.



Naturally, that is a very good question.  Now if the Germans (Bismarck) had Rudolph killed, does anyone think they would have made that fact known to FJ?  No, or course not since FJ was a proud emperor and loved his son in his own way.   Even with being partners of Germany, FJ would never have let that slide.  So how could someone get around the objections of the Austrian Royal Family to just accepting the death of Rudolph as being murder-suicide if there was any doubt?

Take a look at the facts we do have, and one in particular always made an impression on me.  Those closest to Rudolph have all said something similar:  ~The truth is so much worse~ than the official finding of murder-suicide.  This was claimed not only by FJ himself, but also by Marie-Valerie and Rudolph's two closest companions that night, his brother-in-law Prince Philip and Count Hoyos, among others.  Now the murder of a young, almost under-age mistress by a married man who then kills himself is quite bad.  Although it can be given a certain romantic spin effectively exploited in later movies, it had to be totally bad from the point of view of the Austrian Royal Family at that time.

What could have happened as alleged by those present (Prince Philip and Count Hoyos) that would have been so much worse than murder-suicide?   Any guesses anyone?

Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #175 on: October 12, 2012, 12:14:39 AM »
Those other theories were just in the first day or two after the tragedy.  When Rudolph's family and the prime minister and others said the truth was so much worse was years later. 

Again, does anyone have any ideas on what could be worse than murder / suicide under these circumstances?

FlashlightReader

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #176 on: October 12, 2012, 08:42:51 PM »
No theories here, but since I'm posting does anyone know anything about Mitzi?

Pezzazz

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #177 on: October 13, 2012, 11:35:42 AM »
After Rudolph died, Mitzi was taken very good care of financially for the rest of her life, although she died rather young -- early 1900s.

After the initial claims, she never had anything more to say about him.

FlashlightReader

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #178 on: October 15, 2012, 06:10:33 AM »
Does anyone know anything of her life before?

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #179 on: December 27, 2012, 09:57:53 AM »
People, could anyone post photos of Mayerling Hunting lodge's plans of interior, with floors and rooms marked. It have been posted here, but unfortunately I can't find it right now.
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