Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II

[Greenowl]

Thanks Greg,

I am sure it will be well worth the wait, especially as I never expected there would be any new developments. Good luck with the remaining work on the book and roll on December!

Cheers,
GREENOWL

[amelia]

I can not wait to read it.

Eva McDonald

[Greg_King]

I hope it's worth the wait - it was a long slog of research to even try to assemble a cogent theory - which changed more than once as the evidence did - until a final assessment set the boundaries which helped us render what I hope is a highly plausible theory.

[nena]

I have never doubted in your writing skills, mr King. I got my copy of 'FOTR' years ago and I found it amazingly detailed book, you simply see effort and time spent for the book to be done.   

See what I found (IMO, photos of the original hunting lodge are hard to find, I am aware only of two photos), but this one photo is the hunting lodge taken backwards, at the entrance of courtyard.
That were the gate through which Mary Vetsera's was taken by her uncles to be buried the day after tragedy:



One simply has to ask himself - was Rudolf really able to commit a murder? His daughter was barely 6, I always think of her.

If that tragedy hadn't have happened, maybe he would have been an Emperor, maybe Franz Ferdinand wouldn't be Heir, maybe Sarajevo murders would not happen in 1914, the WW1 started, Empires vanished and maybe we would not post here now at this forum and meet other great people such you are....What a connection between people, don't you think?  

If that was political murder, how would you explain farewell letters [unless he and Mary was forced to wrote thos. (I doubt, but many possibilities and theories come to your head)]. Why Empress Sissi supposedly wasn't allowed to see Rudolf's hands, they could have shown wounds? And so on -- many questions, no exact answers.

Best regards,

N.

[Kalafrana]

Serious point. Rudolf was in very poor health and, I understand, addicted to opiates. I rather doubt that he would have outlived his father. If that were the case, then, as Rudolf had no son FF would have been heir anyway.

Ann

[Greg_King]

The letters were indeed written by Mary and by Rudolf - no doubt about it.  Which, on the face of it, suggests a suicide pact.  But what ultimately happened, it seems, was actually different.  I think I can say, though, that the story that Sisi wasn't allowed to view Rudolf's hands is a bit of nonsense that a few authors have repeated without bothering to do some serious research.

I can safely say that all the romantic nonsense about them dying for love is just that - nonsense.  We found some stunning information that I think puts this notion to rest once and for all.

As for Rudolf, he was QUITE unstable mentally and physically.  As Kalafrana says, I seriously doubt he would have managed to survive until 1916 to succeed his father - his gonorrhea, drug use, and alcohol use were all destroying his health.

Some sort of tragedy was probably inevitable with him - his whole tormented life had been building up to a cataclysm.

[nena]

I agree that the truth is often simple - it is greatest truth of all times in my opinion.

Yes, one should asks himself would really Rudolf live that long. I agree. But we can never know.

As for Mary's farewell letters, in fact I doubt that they were 'recently, newly discovered' -- several fragments are reproduced in 'Idol's End' by Claude Annet.

Also, reading about Mary Von Vetsera, I see nothing but 17 year old girl, young, naive fatally fallen in love with Crown-prince. Seriously. I can bet she was ready to do anything for him.

On the other hand, I can't decide what to say about Prince - he seriously had hard life burdens making him desperate and unbalanced.

In history, I love the chronology for most : So Prince arrived at Mayerling Castle on 28th January 1889 at 15:30h, and Mary on that same day but several hours later? What fascinates me, policies and spy-agents were controlling Prince's steps months earlier from what I have understood. So they knew precisely every his step. 

Also, is possible to know whether the pair met in early November of 1888 or earlier, in the spring of 1888  (April 12th) at Prater or elsewhere as described in Annet's (romanticized, I must admit) book?

I wish people who witnessed the whole events said more in their testimonies, memories (such as Marie Larish or Bratfish, Loscheck and Hoyos) .

Also, one question that strikes me - how many bullets were fired...? One, two? Some accounts say even five that were removed from Mayerling's bedroom. If there were more than 2 fired, one has to ask were those fired by Prince. It is just my mind that ask logical questions, never mind.   

[Greg_King]

Hi Nena,

The first purported versions of some of Mary's letters began circulating in the French press the week of February 10 (Figaro, Le Gaulois, Le Matin).  The Vetsera Denkschrift, which contained versions of Mary's letters to her mother, to her sister Hannah, and to her brother Franz, was published at the end of May 1889.  But as I say, there are very significant differences between the alleged content of the letters as given in the Vetsera Denkschrift (and repeated in numerous books since) and what we now know since the discovery of the actual letters, as to their content.  There are numerous lines in Mary's letters that, until the actual letters were found, were said to have been there but are not.  So the content of Mary's letters was only known from newspapers and from the Vetsera Denkschrift until they real items were found.

Rudolf and Mary arrived at the lodge together, around 5PM on the afternoon of Monday, January 28, though Rudolf rather ungallantly had her get out of the carriage and hide herself in a copse of trees while Bratfisch took HIM to the lodge, then doubled back to collect Mary and bring her in through the side gateway.

As to the number of bullets: there is absolutely no reliable evidence that more than two were fired - accounts that speak of a number of bullets found in the walls and furniture, or that all the bullets were missing from the revolver when found (which, in and of itself would mean nothing unless we knew how many bullets had been loaded to begin with) are all at best second and often third or fourth hand, and often based on nothing more than rumors.

[nena]

Fascinating answer, Mr. Greg, thank you.

Rudolf and Mary arrived at the lodge together, around 5PM on the afternoon of Monday, January 28, though Rudolf rather ungallantly had her get out of the carriage and hide herself in a copse of trees while Bratfisch took HIM to the lodge, then doubled back to collect Mary and bring her in through the side gateway.

That what I am talking about - so many different accounts and stories. This one seems to be very exact and detailed, thank you. So Mary hid at first, and then entered the lodge afterwards.

The first purported versions of some of Mary's letters began circulating in the French press the week of February 10 (Figaro, Le Gaulois, Le Matin).  The Vetsera Denkschrift, which contained versions of Mary's letters to her mother, to her sister Hannah, and to her brother Franz, was published at the end of May 1889.  But as I say, there are very significant differences between the alleged content of the letters as given in the Vetsera Denkschrift (and repeated in numerous books since) and what we now know since the discovery of the actual letters, as to their content.  There are numerous lines in Mary's letters that, until the actual letters were found, were said to have been there but are not.  So the content of Mary's letters was only known from newspapers and from the Vetsera Denkschrift until they real items were found.

Really good research and information!

Also, one must asks himself, how many people were present in those January days, I believe there was household (?), like several servants, or even guards? 

[Greg_King]

In addition to Rudolf and Mary, present at Mayerling were the following people

Johann Loschek, Saaltürhüter (Hall porter) and occasional valet
Alois Zwerger, Schlosswarter (Schloss Warden)
F. Strubreiter, lodge caretaker
N. Strubreiter, lodge maid
Leonard Weckerle, Schloss gardener
Friedrich Wolfe, Schloss carpenter
Sedlak, Schloss orderly
Baumgartner, Schloss staff
F. Kathe, cook
Franz Wodicka, Kammerbüchsenspanner (Gun loader)
Julius Schuldes (Telegraphist)
Count Hoyos
Jakob Zak, Kamerdiener to Hoyos
August Kianek, Personal Huntsman to Hoyos
Josef Bratfisch
Joseph Wedl, Police post commander assigned to Mayerling
Thomas Albrecht, Police sentry assigned to Mayerling
Laurenz Lebert, police official from Baden
Karl Laferl, Schloss servant
Count Reinhard von Leiningen-Westerburg and his wife (lived in villa on the estate)

So 21 people in addition to Rudolf and Mary!

[Kalafrana]

21 people, but most of them servants, as one might expect at an aristocratic hunting lodge at that time.

ann

[nena]

So, 23 in total. That is the number of Ipatiev's house stairway that the IF and their 4 retainers walked into death in the night of 17th july 1918.

But, thank you for the whole list - you can not find that list elsewhere on the net.  I am amazed. Quite deep and detailed research, I dare to notice. Just like history has to be.

I believe that, besides Bratfish, Hoyos and Loschek, someone else from the list also must have had written/spoken anything about the tragedy. I have read that the snow was deep so Prince and Bratfish had to go out of carriage and push it to make it (carriage) go properly while on road to Mayerling.
 
Also, I believe Loscheck wrote that they apparently did not know Mary was present but female presence could be clearly sensed at the lodge, and how he couldn't even imagine that he shaken Prince's hand for the last time in the evening of 29th January.

Also, there is clear evidence of what the Prince had dined for his last dinner. I want to tell that many details are known and clear -  until it comes to the fateful morning of January 30th. Also, from what I have understood, Prince was alive in that morning too.     

Again, thanks for making the thread alive.

Anyway, if circumstances would allow me, I would buy the book. FOTR also was great enjoy.

[Kalafrana]

What about Philipp of Coburg? I understood that he was at Mayerling too? Or did he only arrive after the bodies were found?

Ann

[Greg_King]

I forgot

Mauritz Loffler, who was a huntsman at Mayerling
Karl Ratschek, Jaeger
Kubitschka, forester

So three more people - but after re-checking the list I think this is complete - it represents only those at the lodge on the night of January 29, so Philipp of Coburg is excluded as he was in Vienna at the Hofburg dinner for Marie Valerie (though where he went after that remains unknown - he didn't go home, so perhaps he was with a mistress)

Of all of these people, Loschek, Hoyos, Wolf, and Loffler left accounts; Bratfisch WAS interviewed by the police and portions of that remain in the files, while his daughter Antonia Konhäuser later filled in details.

But if anyone else wrote an account it has yet to come to light.

[Greenowl]

Amazing research Greg...I am impressed as I had never heard of some of those people who were present in Mayerling on that fateful night, including Weckerle, Sedlac, Loffler and Ratschek. Roll on December!
Cheers,
GREENOWL