Author Topic: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II  (Read 229056 times)

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Offline Joanna

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #255 on: March 22, 2017, 08:55:39 AM »
Greg, here is the typed Russian version as it may be easier to understand Polovtsov's diary entry:

7 марта 1889 Вторник. Посылаю Балашеву редакцию статей устава Нового клуба. В 45/2 часа приезжает из Вены и поселяется у нас старинный наш приятель кн. Лобанов, рассказывает ркасные и нравственно отвратительные подробности о личности самоубийцы эрцгерцога Рудольфа.

5 ноября 1890 Понедельник. В 11 час. у вел. кн. Михаила Николаевича, предлагаю ему перевести в Департамент законов из Департамента экономии Менгдена, чтобы, таким образом, подкрепить ослабленный выбытием Перетца и Старицкого Департамент законов, подкрепить элементом почтенным, а не взятым в редакции "Гражданина", как, например, сенатор Татищев, о коем Мещерский уже начал писать хвалебные статьи.

Одновременно, таким образом, очищается место адмиралу Пещурову, которому государь выразил намерение дать занятия в Совете и Который в Департаменте экономии может действительно принести пользу.

Комбинация эта еще имеет ту пользу, что затем посторонние Совету силы, прибавлю, невежественные силы, вроде Дурново, не могут

"А затем, ваше высочество, император говорит вам нежности, к которым, он считает, вы чувствительны".
обвинять в слабосилии Департамент законов и стараться навязать нам своих сподручников. Если к 1 января зайдет речь о назначении новых членов, то можно будет толковать лишь о подкреплении Гражданского департамента, а туда поневоле надо назначать юристов.

Вел. кн. Михаил Николаевич едет на похороны одного из бывших своих подчиненных, а я отправляюсь завтракать с вел. кн. Владимиром Александровичем в Новый клуб. По обыкновению при разговоре с глазу на глаз он передает интересные факты и суждения.

В последнюю бытность в Берлине вел. князь просил императора Вильгельма сообщить, что ему известно об обстоятельствах смерти эрцгерцога Рудольфа. Император отвечал, что он вызвал принца Филиппа Кобургского, чтобы от него узнать подробности этого ужасного события, так как принц Кобургский находился в этот день на охоте с покойным, но на просьбу императора принц Кобургский отвечал, что он в числе прочих лиц, участвовавших в охоте, должен был, по желанию австрийского императора, принести ему клятву, что никогда никому не скажет ни слова о том, как дело было.
На основании других сообщений и тайных сведений германский император подозревает, что наследник австрийского престола пал жертвою ненависти иезуитов, коим выказывал явное нерасположение, к клерикалам вообще и иезуитам в особенности. Незадолго до смерти эрцгерцог Рудольф имел бурное объяснение с пражским архиереем, который в порыве гнева произнес даже угрозы. На брата императора эрцгерцога Карла-Людвига, известного своим сочувствием к клерикалам, падает подозрение в том, что он был в заговоре. Подозрение это еще подтверждается и тем, что после смерти Рудольфа он, Карл-Людвиг, предложил разобрать все бумаги племянника, ликвидировал все его дела, не говоря ни слова опечаленному отцу, от которого впоследствии получил всю израсходованную им на ликвидацию сумму. Последние подробности вел. князю передавал принц Альберт Саксен-Альтенбургский, охотившийся нынче осенью по приглашению государя в Спале.

Joanna

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #256 on: March 22, 2017, 09:17:18 PM »
Thanks Joanna!  I love his "morally disgusting details" about Rudolf but wish he had included them!  Karl Ludwig being behind it has been around for a long time and suspicions about Jesuits even longer - when a Habsburg dies (as with Franz Ferdinand and Sophie) someone ALWAYS blames the Jesuits.  But it sounds as if the Kaiser is just running with wild speculation here - same as everyone else at the time.

Offline Joanna

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #257 on: March 23, 2017, 10:18:38 AM »
Greg, when I first read years ago Polovtsov's diary entry on 'Jesuits', I thought it doubtful. Since then, I have read of the nefarious efforts by Jesuits prior to Ludwig of Bavaria's abdication in 1848 and it seems plausible.

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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #258 on: March 23, 2017, 10:28:22 PM »
Well...certainly in 1848 they were at the center of things in Bavaria, Austria, etc. But in all honesty, I think I can safely say that they had nothing whatsoever to do with what happened at Mayerling (or in Sarajevo, for that matter).   Of course the Kaiser is merely speculating here - just like everyone else - and given that the finger of blame has pointed at him (and/or Bismarck) it just shows how little everyone really knew.  The Court had only itself to blame, but so many of the conspiracy theories were spewed out by courtiers and Habsburg relatives, most contradicting themselves.

Offline Joanna

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #259 on: March 24, 2017, 06:27:00 PM »
Greg,  have you searched archives for diaries, letters etc of Prince Lobanov? Would he have written dispatches etc besides verbally speaking with Polovtsov on the Rudolf suicide? What did he tell Alexander III? It is off topic for my research at the moment but now I am curious of this Ambassador!

Joanna

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #260 on: March 24, 2017, 09:45:45 PM »
I confess no - there are some Russian dispatches from Vienna that we made use of, but in accessing diplomatic files from Austria, Germany and England it became clear fairly early that no one knew what they were really talking about - everyone (even diplomats) was wildly speculating - they all knew enough of the basics - two dead bodies at Mayerling, Mary was Rudolf's mistress, etc. - but beyond that everyone was simply spreading gossip.  So while we might, I suppose, chased the Russians down it became something of a fool's errand in light of what had been accessed already.  There might be a few interesting bits there to be uncovered, but I would have serious doubts, especially given the relationship between Russia and Austria-Hungary at the time, that the Russians would have been in any better position than the Germans to pick up any unique information.

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #261 on: April 23, 2017, 05:14:03 AM »
It is interesting to see foreign's point of view on the affair.

Also, several things still strike my mind - it seems unclear how did Mary die, since from what I have read, her skull was damaged and no traces of bullet hole was found, what allegedly suggested that she died due to severe wounds at her head done by rigid item?

Since if she had been shot hours before Rudolf, how no one heard the gunshot?

I really can't wait the book to be released.

I also would like to know (in anyone's opinion)  what makes Mayerling affair mysterious? I believe that logical explaination must exists. I also wonder does the book starts long before January of 1889 or it is focused mainly in 1889...
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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #262 on: April 23, 2017, 07:56:30 PM »
Hi Nena,

Alas, answers to some of your questions we cannot yet discuss, but these questions are answered in the book.  As for the book itself, it starts in 1889.  Part I dips back in time for five chapters to outline Rudolf and Mary and their relationship, then Part II returns to 1889 and gives a straightforward account of events until their respective funerals.  Part III looks at all of the theories, and Part IV lays out, while looking back and trying to explain some incidents previously mentioned, what we feel happened.

Best,

Greg

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #263 on: April 25, 2017, 12:53:09 AM »
Hi Greg,

thank you for your explanation and for your patience and time to answer. I hope that we will get something closest to the truth. There is even theory that the couple were killed by Balatzi's, when they wanted to pick Mary back home. I believe that Mary was to die first, and then Rudolf in the morning, not during the night.

Nena.
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Offline Maria Sisi

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #264 on: October 29, 2017, 11:35:41 PM »
A reminder for people in the United States that Greg and Penny's book on Rudolf and the Mayerling tragedy, "Twilight of Empire: The Tragedy at Mayerling and the End of the Habsburgs" will be available on November 14th on amazon!

I'm beyond excited. The libraries in my neck of the woods have nothing on Rudolf or Mayerling. So all information I get on the subject is due to online research or the brief chapters/mentions in books about the last century of the empire. The most information I got from a library book was from Brigette Hamann's bio. on his mother.

It will be wonderful to read on the subject on sources up to date! 

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #265 on: November 03, 2017, 07:14:02 AM »
I'm beyond excited. The libraries in my neck of the woods have nothing on Rudolf or Mayerling. So all information I get on the subject is due to online research or the brief chapters/mentions in books about the last century of the empire. The most information I got from a library book was from Brigette Hamann's bio. on his mother.

It will be wonderful to read on the subject on sources up to date! 
I agree, I agree. I hope that we can expect many unknown details.
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Offline Greenowl

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #266 on: November 03, 2017, 06:57:40 PM »
Excellent news! I will order my copy next week and am really looking forward to an interesting read.
Cheers,
GREENOWL

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #267 on: November 03, 2017, 09:19:11 PM »
Thanks....I've been posting some extra material on Facebook as well.  I hope it's worth the wait!

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #268 on: November 04, 2017, 03:27:21 AM »
When is it coming out in the UK?

Ann

Offline nena

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death, Part II
« Reply #269 on: November 04, 2017, 08:42:29 AM »
I've read on somewhere that Rudolf's dog was also found dead at Mayerling's hunting lodge - is that again just a conspiracy or ?
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Mathematics, art and history in ♥