Author Topic: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding  (Read 26598 times)

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eejm

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2007, 10:07:09 AM »
It always seemed to me that the inbreeding caused it to sponaneousely mutate in QV as her half sister Feodoria was not a carrier.  But it doesn't seem to rule out something that Charlotte Zeepvat raised in QV Family, that perhaps this gene went back generations through the Duchess of Kent.

Zeepvat mentioned Feodora as a possible carrier in Leopold's biography.  Feodora must have had a son who died young; I don't have the book on me, so I can't tell you any more than that.  I'll check when I get home.  Even so, if Victoria, Duchess of Kent was a carrier, she could have passed it onto Queen Victoria, but not Feodora.  Not all daughters of carriers end up carriers themselves.  Case in point - Empress Frederich, Princess Helena (possibly, though she may have been a carrier too), Victoria, Marchioness of Milford Haven, etc.

basilforever

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2007, 10:33:26 AM »
I really don't think the Duchess of Kent was a carrier. It just spontaneously occured in QV at conception. Perhaps influenced by her father being quite elderly at the time. There has actually not been any proper evidence uncovered that QV's mother's family had hemophilia throughout the generations. From what I understand of hemophilia, the initial case of it that spreads throughout the generations, cannot be caused by inbreeding.

eejm

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2007, 12:16:10 PM »
I really don't think the Duchess of Kent was a carrier. It just spontaneously occured in QV at conception. Perhaps influenced by her father being quite elderly at the time. There has actually not been any proper evidence uncovered that QV's mother's family had hemophilia throughout the generations. From what I understand of hemophilia, the initial case of it that spreads throughout the generations, cannot be caused by inbreeding.

Does anyone know if the risk of genetic mutations increases through intermarriage?  I'm not sure how much bearing this would have with the hemophilia in Victoria's family, however.  Were Edward, Duke of Kent, and Victoria of Coburg at all related?  If so, how closely?

basilforever

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2007, 01:30:33 PM »
No, QV's parents were not closely related. I can't think of a relation between them at the moment.

Offline lori_c

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2007, 12:45:31 PM »
It always seemed to me that the inbreeding caused it to sponaneousely mutate in QV as her half sister Feodoria was not a carrier.  But it doesn't seem to rule out something that Charlotte Zeepvat raised in QV Family, that perhaps this gene went back generations through the Duchess of Kent.

Zeepvat mentioned Feodora as a possible carrier in Leopold's biography.  Feodora must have had a son who died young; I don't have the book on me, so I can't tell you any more than that.  I'll check when I get home.  Even so, if Victoria, Duchess of Kent was a carrier, she could have passed it onto Queen Victoria, but not Feodora.  Not all daughters of carriers end up carriers themselves.  Case in point - Empress Frederich, Princess Helena (possibly, though she may have been a carrier too), Victoria, Marchioness of Milford Haven, etc.

Yes this was something that Zeepvat brough up that interested me, was the point that many infant deaths weren't attributed to hemophilia at the time but perhaps were, even through Feodoria wasn't considered a carrier, but as you pointed out she certainly did have a 50/50 chance of being a carrier.  As far as interbreeding causing hemophilia, that isn't exactly what I meant.  I do believe that it aggravated an already genetic situation.  Especially if it WASN'T something far back in Victoria's line and occurred spontaneously.

The fact that hemophilia occurred in QV's very large family makes it an excellent case study for the disease, so it's very easy to fall back on the interbreeding theory.  But hemophilia occurs of course in people who are very very unrelated.  I was just wondering if the closeness of QV & PA and past generations of cousins marrying might have helped it along.


basilforever

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2007, 02:04:29 PM »
It always seemed to me that the inbreeding caused it to sponaneousely mutate in QV as her half sister Feodoria was not a carrier.  But it doesn't seem to rule out something that Charlotte Zeepvat raised in QV Family, that perhaps this gene went back generations through the Duchess of Kent.

Zeepvat mentioned Feodora as a possible carrier in Leopold's biography.  Feodora must have had a son who died young; I don't have the book on me, so I can't tell you any more than that.  I'll check when I get home.  Even so, if Victoria, Duchess of Kent was a carrier, she could have passed it onto Queen Victoria, but not Feodora.  Not all daughters of carriers end up carriers themselves.  Case in point - Empress Frederich, Princess Helena (possibly, though she may have been a carrier too), Victoria, Marchioness of Milford Haven, etc.

Yes this was something that Zeepvat brough up that interested me, was the point that many infant deaths weren't attributed to hemophilia at the time but perhaps were, even through Feodoria wasn't considered a carrier, but as you pointed out she certainly did have a 50/50 chance of being a carrier.  As far as interbreeding causing hemophilia, that isn't exactly what I meant.  I do believe that it aggravated an already genetic situation.  Especially if it WASN'T something far back in Victoria's line and occurred spontaneously.

The fact that hemophilia occurred in QV's very large family makes it an excellent case study for the disease, so it's very easy to fall back on the interbreeding theory.  But hemophilia occurs of course in people who are very very unrelated.  I was just wondering if the closeness of QV & PA and past generations of cousins marrying might have helped it along.



I must reiterate, as I have thought about this a great deal. The fact QV and PA were first cousins had NOTHING to do with hemophilia in their descendents. It started with QV herself. If she had married anyone, since she was a carrier, each child would have a fifty fifty chance of either being a carrier (if female) or having it (if male).

Therefore QV's half-sister Feodora was definitely not a carrier, and she had no chance of being one, as it started with QV. There were a lot of babies who died all over the world, throughout all classes in those days. It was the norm. If hemophilia had been prevalent in QV's mother's family, then why did no hemophilia sufferer grow up at least past infancy, this was not at all ucommon. In fact it appears to be the norm- Leopold, Aleksei, Waldemar, etc. etc. And then their symptoms would have been duly noted, and we could say that QV's mother's family contained hemophilia. As this never happened, we can safely say QV's mother's family did not have hemophilia. Anyone can get hemophila not because their ancestors had it, but because they were simply born with it themselves. Experts have concluded this was the case with QV almost certainly. It had nothing to do with inbreeding, as already stated QV's parents were not related, so she herself was far less inbred than MANY other royals of the time. Hemophilia can not be ''aggravate an already genetic situation'' it is a disease unto itself, which can occur in anyone, nothing to do with inbreeding. It only spread within royalty because QV's descendents married other royals, not because of inbreeding. If Alice, or Beatrice had married anyone, once again, their descendents would have had the same chance of having hemophilia.

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2007, 05:21:55 PM »
What I would be interested in, is if anyone could quote anything to PROVE that hemophilia is not aggravated by inbreeding. Of course, it isn't caused by it, and there's many sources on that. Has it ever been studied that hemophilia was not aggravated by inbreeding? I've never read that inbreeding and hemophilia have any connection, but I'm not well versed on topics like this, I just have a lot of curiosity. Well, undoubtedly, Queen Victoria's parents were not closely related, but I imagine they were very distantly related to each other through German royalty, which she was, and of which he was descended through a long line of marriages. That's another thing I'm curious on.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2007, 08:33:32 PM »
I think the diease mutated in Victoria.  ???

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2007, 11:00:57 AM »
Well, I would be just interested in sources to prove it either way. I'm not much of an expert on anything scientific though I grasp the basics of hemophilia. Maybe it's never been looked at because it obvious there is no connection??. I'm sure Victoria's parents were distantly related, but not close enough to call the marriage inbreeding in the least. But, royals marrying royals did help the spread of hemophilia across Europe, although it didn't make hemophilia more likely, it just spread it further, which is making it worse in a way.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 11:04:04 AM by imperial angel »

basilforever

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2007, 11:39:43 AM »
I tried looking on wikipeida for a link. Couldn't find anything about inbreeding. It has nothing to do with inbreeding (the existence of it) I am 99% sure, but it was just passed to so many royals because QV's descendents married mostly royals.

Quote
Haemophilia figured prominently in the history of European royalty and thus is sometimes known as "the royal disease". Queen Victoria passed the mutation to her son Leopold and, through several of her daughters, to various royals across the continent, including the royal families of Spain, Germany, and Russia. Tsarevich Alexei Nikolaevich, son of Nicholas II, was a descendant of Queen Victoria and suffered from haemophilia.

So it wasn't because of inbreeding, it was just because of royals marrying royals. If Queen Victoria's affected children and grandchildren had married commoners who they had no relation to, then it would have been passed to those families as well.



Here is a good chart showing the situation when a female hemophilia carrier (like QV or Ena for example) has children with a man with no hemophilia, (which she nearly always would have.)

Offline lori_c

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2007, 01:27:39 PM »
It's not so much that QV was a carrier.  That we can all agree was how it spread from there on throughout the family.  My interest would be the cause of the spontaneous mutation.  I feel it was due to inbreeding before Victoria.  And there were instances of this.

A scientific case study has been going on by scientists in the case of the Pennsylvania Amish community and the genetic causes of diseases including mutations that cause cancer as well as other diseases, and there was a specific mention of blood disorders including hemophilia.  So scientists are taking into consideration that in breeding such as in the Amish and even QV's family could be the cause of these mutations. 

So while we can speculate forever and will probably never truly know how the mutation occurred, scientist are studying in-breeding as a cause.

Duke of New Jersey

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2007, 02:13:48 PM »
The only way hemophilia can really be agravated by in-breeding is if a carrier female marries a sufferer male.  If Vicky had introduced the hemophilia gene into Prussia and Irene of Hesse married Henry of Prussia they could have had a hemophilic daughter. 

-Duke of NJ

basilforever

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2007, 03:03:06 PM »
Yes, Duke of NJ, that is the only way that hemophilia can be caused/aggravated by in-breeding - like if two first cousins married and the woman was a hemophilia carrier and the man was a hemo. sufferer, and they were both like this because of a mutual grandparent for example. Otherwise the spreading, and almost certainly the initial cause has nothing to do with inbreeding. QV herself, was, by the standards of the day, a VERY un-inbred (not in-bred) royal person, so it couldn't have been because QV was inbred that she was a carrier, because she wasn't inbred. :) We don't need to speculate forever, because geneticists can work it out, probably.

As for why the mutation in QV - maybe there was no reason. Maybe it just occured by chance. That would not be unusual. Or maybe it was because QV's father was old, and his sperm was not in very good condition.  :-[ ???

QV's father the Duke of Kent: Geneticsts say he introduced Heamphilia into the Royal family be being
an elderly father of Queen Victoria. The mutation started here.
source: http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedlkup/n=royal?royal00133
« Last Edit: May 10, 2007, 03:09:43 PM by basilforever »

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2007, 04:03:28 PM »
I always thought that this was lethal; a haemophiliac female. I have asked my paediatrician colleagues at work and they agree ???
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Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2007, 04:15:28 PM »
Well, it's also very rare from what I know, as in it almost never happens.