Author Topic: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding  (Read 26604 times)

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Offline britt.25

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2009, 07:23:54 AM »
At this point I would like to start a new discussion among the section of the Habsburg family.

It deals with the question of marriage rules within the Habsburg family. I would be  interested to know what the other forum members

know about different kinds of marriages within the Habsburg family and especially about the laws concerning morganatic marriages.

Who of the Habsburg family members does have the right to carry the usual title "Archduke", and who and why are those members, who are "only" counts or can/should simply be called "Mr. Habsburg" ?

I would be very interested to know more on this subject!

Any ideas, any material and knowledge would be welcomed!

Thank you!
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

CFH_Mexico

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #61 on: October 20, 2009, 12:02:47 AM »
When Franz Stephan von Lothringen married Empress Maria Teresa, marriage rules within the family were the well known AEIOU tu Felix Austria Nube. Then as they were having more and more children, many of the noble families of Europe and principally from the Austro Hungarian empire sent their sons and daughters to Vienna and tried by all means, to introduce themselves with the multiple and good looking Archdukes.  They employed all types of tricks and the young archdukes and archduchesses were overwhelmed by the "attack" from all sides.  All central European families wanted to become members or related to the Habsburgs.
In order to protect the archdukes from the constant attacks, principally by the "Petite Noblesse", and to continue with the idea of the archdukes and archduchesses marrying princesses and princess from other countries, the Habsburgs made rules whereby only 12 families from the Austro Hungarian Empire were "Ebenburtig", which means Ok for the Archdukes to marry. All other families were considered as "Not up to standard" or morganatic. This meant that if an archduke married a noble from the Austro Hungarian families that was not in the chosen list of 12 families the marriage was considered morganatic, which means that their descendants had no right to the throne and were no longer part of the House of Austria.
In order to perpetuate this defensive rule, it was written into the Austrian Constitution and never changed. This made that the Archdukes were no longer so interesting and the constant attacks stopped overnight. It was only the Emperor who could, under his authority, accept a marriage as non morganatic.

Offline britt.25

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #62 on: October 21, 2009, 02:45:40 PM »
It's interesting that you mentioned that there was a list of certain aristocratic families, 12 you said, which were considered as equal to the house of Habsburg, and therefore allright to marry for them. Can you tell us, after which criteries they were chosen? Were they only reigning families, which were somewhere connected to the Habsburgs, or did they special merits for them, had special wealth or anything? Could they also be less powerful or not reigning families? Maybe you can name of some of this list, I guess this would be very interesting to see, which families the Habsburgs characterized as equal to them. So it seems, it was something rather "sujective" to choose certain families, which should be "equal" and to excude others. Who did explicitly decide and work out that "list"? I would be happy to have some examples. Thank you for sharing the interesting info!
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 02:49:04 PM by britt.25 »
La vérité est plus importante que l'amour

     Marie Bonaparte (1882-1962)

CFH_Mexico

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #63 on: November 09, 2009, 04:40:41 PM »
Britt: I will try to answer your questions the best I can. They are complex and most of them have no real Back up as the Habsburgs have kept, to my knowledge, very secretive their marriage rules. I will try to find out as much as possible on this interesting topic.

Part of your question on: There was a list of certain aristocratic families, 12 you said, which were considered as equal to the house of Habsburg and therefore all right to marry for them.  Maybe you can name of some of this list.

I remember having read this someplace. Unfortunately I have not yet found the source. I seem to remember that the names were inscribed in the Austrian constitution of 1848 but I don’t find it any more. Can someone look into it? The 12 families were mostly princes that lived in the Territory of the Austro Hungarian Empire. All other European princesses living outside the Austro Hungarian Empire and were Catholic were considered Ok.

Robert_Hall

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #64 on: November 09, 2009, 04:52:43 PM »
Mediatised German families, as long as they were Catholic, were considered equal and marriageable.

CFH_Mexico

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2009, 07:09:05 PM »
Mediatised? there was no media until the end of the XIX Century and that is exagerating. German families had to be Roman Catholic and be equals or accepted under the marriage laws of the German Kaiser. Rules where clear at the time and had absolutely nothing to do with the media or mediatic families. Nobility and religion did count

Robert_Hall

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Re: Inter-Marriage and In-Breeding
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2009, 07:45:11 PM »
Mediazation of formerly sovereign states occured on a large scale at the dissolution of the Holy Roman Empire in  1805, however, they occured before as well, when one state submitted to another. They were considered as equal status to reigning royal and there fore- royal. This status occured in  other countries at other times as well. In the Habsburgs case,  they were  fine as long as they were Catholic. It is an old, anachronistic practice, but still in force, even now.
 There are many books that explain this but  C.A. Mactney, The Habsburg Empie and F. Heer The Holy Roman Empire come to mind. Also, Burke's Royal Families of the World, Vol. I