Author Topic: About the Octopus With the Crown  (Read 11751 times)

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Offline belianis

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About the Octopus With the Crown
« on: July 13, 2010, 08:05:39 PM »
I hear that there is around now a flag with a crowned pulpo=octopus, in reference to the player who accomplished the winning gol. I pray that it may be seen in the USA, at least so that Americans may learn what the Spanish crown actually looks like.
When Juan Carlos was appointed Prince of Spain, and when he acceded to the throne, there were many US cartoons showing him wearing crowns that were clearly modeled after those that GB's royalty uses. The Americans are so in love with the House Windsor that they think that all crowns look like the British crowns, when in fact the crowns of GB are unique in their design, and do not resemble at all those of the other kingdoms of Europe, including Spain.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2010, 08:27:28 PM »
 Thec crowns used in prints and logos are just generic, copyright free stereotypes. They  do not necessarlity represent any particular  kingdom. And, there is no Spanish crown, The one  we see on flags and such  are merely a heraldic  device/invention. [Twinning]
 One really needs to have a speical interest in these things to even notice them.
 I doubt most Americans, or anyone else cares a fig about it.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2010, 08:43:13 PM »
On the subject of the Spanish "crown":  One will note with curiousity, topping the two supporters (the so-called "Pillars of Hercules") of the Spanish coat of arms, that two DIFFERENT "stylized" crowns are used, one for the Imperial crown and one for the Royal crown (which also surmounts the arms proper).  I used to visit quite a bit in Spain, and it first caught my attention there.   AP
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 08:48:17 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2010, 09:02:11 PM »
Yes, AP. Those crowns relate, if I am not mistaken to CharlesV/Carlos I who was HRE as well as king of Spain. They have been  modified many times but now is a  standard  logo  for Spain  and the Royal Family.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2010, 09:29:33 PM »
Correct, Robert! My Spanish flag (crowns and all) is flying in front of my home as we speak, as a tribute to the World Cup/Tournament!    Regards,  AP
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 09:32:36 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2010, 10:50:09 PM »
I have  flag of Spain  here, somewhere in my vexicological  collection, but forgot to bring it out.
  Despite the octopus Paul, I was sort of  cheering The Netherlands anyway.
 Another  nonexistent crown.
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Offline Lucien

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About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 12:34:26 AM »
Je Maintiendrai

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 12:51:10 AM »
 I think  Paul was bribed, by  it's fave food, whatever that is.
 Anyway, our part was all in fun and sportsmanship  [excepting France, perhaps]
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 12:56:24 AM by Robert_Hall »
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

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Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2011, 08:55:51 PM »
And, there is no Spanish crown

But there is:



Quote
I was sort of  cheering The Netherlands anyway.
 Another  nonexistent crown.

Surprise: The Dutch crown:



Check out pictures of the inaugurations (juramento / inhuldiging) of King Juan Carlos and Queen Beatrix and you will see them prominently displayed. Not on the monarchs' heads, but on cushions.

The only European monarchies that never had regalia are:
Belgium
Luxembourg
Monaco
Liechtenstein (they once had a princely cap, but it's long gone)
Bulgaria only had a small tsaritsa's crown and I'm not sure about Albania.

These German states had regalia: Prussia, Bavaria, Hanover, Württemberg and Baden.
All the other German states, including the German Empire, lacked regalia. The Kings of Saxony had various Polish crowns in their possession, but did not use them as Saxon crowns.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 09:27:32 PM by Фёдор Петрович »

aleksandr pavlovich

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Re: About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2011, 09:20:57 PM »
Re  the Dutch crown, in particular:  Prince Michael of Greece in his 1983 volume, "Crown Jewels of Europe," remarks on page 100, that the present crown and sceptre (of William II) " are neither very original nor very precious. They are only made of silver gilt and set with imitation stones and pearls......".  While Spain may indeed have a (modern) token/symbolic physical crown and sceptre "not even of gold,", Prince Michael asserts that today Spain "has no Crown Jewels" per se  (page 108).   Regards,  AP.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 09:25:55 PM by aleksandr pavlovich »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2011, 09:36:12 PM »
That is quite right. These crowns are very much like the lightweight funerary crowns of former times. Indeed, when Willem I, famously ridiculed as the stingy king with the copper crown, had to find himself a crown for his inauguration, he merely recycled an old funerary crown he found op het stadhouderlijk zolder, in the stadtholderly attick, as I once saw it described in Dutch!

The Spanish crown in more correct, less crushed proportions:



Iberian crowns have never been very elaborate, mostly just gold with no jewels.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 09:37:52 PM by Фёдор Петрович »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2011, 10:31:02 PM »
I would not consider that a real crown. Much like the Dutch, it is a cheap prop for the king's "inauguration and for when he addresses the Cortes. I will try and drag out the Twinning and see what he had to say about the Spanish crown. No easy task as that sucker is HEAVY!
 I am pretty sure that Albania had no crown per se, as it was ostensibly a Muslim monarchy and they do not usually have crowns. The Zogettes had tiaras though, but they were private, not state property.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2011, 10:36:10 PM by Robert_Hall »
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2011, 12:00:00 AM »
I would not consider that a real crown.
Interesting opinion. Qu'est-ce que une couronne... Would you consider the crown of the grand dukes of Baden, never worn and just displayed at a few funerals, made of pieces of silver sheets, velvet and papier-mâché literally sewn together with golden thread and wire, but with real gems, a real crown?



Perhaps it's so textilian it should be classified as a cap, like the Fürstenhut / Княжеская шапка.

Quote
I will try and drag out the Twinning and see what he had to say about the Spanish crown. No easy task as that sucker is HEAVY!
While you have got the Twining out, it would be great if you can check up on the mysterious Hanoverian crowns too discusessd here, while you're at it!

Quote
I am pretty sure that Albania had no crown per se, as it was ostensibly a Muslim monarchy and they do not usually have crowns.

The shah had a crown (with a velvety look, like the Badenois one), but perhaps that was due to him being Shia. Muslim monarchs really are strange in some respects. Especially the Arab ones tend to wear robes that, to mye eye at least, make them indistinguishable from their subjects. A bit like how an English gentleman in evening wear can look identical to his butler, valet or a waiter.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 12:09:06 AM by Фёдор Петрович »

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: About the Octopus With the Crown
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2011, 02:10:27 PM »
Yes, Fyodor, it is simply my personal opinion and certainly not carved in stone. I am fairly flexible on most matters, including crowns...
 Now, in the case of Hannover;  from what I could gather,  most of the jewels, including crowns were lost during the various dispersals for safekeeping. In one instance, some were hidden in a child's tomb. They also went to Vienna and London at various times, where George III bought some back for his bride to be,  Queen Caroline. No telling what happen to those when the so-called  "romance" fell apart. If I read this correctly,  Wilhelm  took what he could find of the Hannover  crown jewels but left the Brunswick  cache.  He gave them back when his daughter married Ernst Augustus of Brunswick No sooner than what was left reassembled, more wars came about, including more theft.
 This book  came out in 1960. so the theft by the Americans and Russians was not well known, I gather as they are not mentioned.
 By the same  token, there is not much, if anything said about the current  "crown" in use in Spain now. The monarchy had not been fully restored at that time The chapter is mainly a discussion on the crowns of the old kingdoms.
 Moslems....well, most do no have crowns, but some do have aigrettes placed in their turbans, These costly and beautiful objects  were used in the Ottoman and  Moslem Indian empires.
 The Arab sheiks and kings do look  pretty nondescript but some have slight distinctions.   The ogal, or head band that holds the shuma- head scarf in place may have gold thread woven into it
 The Persian crown jewels are rather unique.  Most of them were  taken [looted] from conguests in Afghanistan and India.  I believe the present incarnations  come from the Qajar dynasty, the Pahlavi Shah  did have a crown made from gems on hand for the Empress Farah's coronation. In the old days, these jewels were considered  state property and backed the treasury. They were used to finance wars and other endeavours. They are still held in the national bank and considered state assets.
 I can cite sources for all the above, if anyone  wants,  it comes from many sources and years of studying Moslen history and culture. Naturally, I concentrated on the monarchies.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.