Author Topic: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins  (Read 27444 times)

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Alixz

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2011, 11:18:20 PM »
Probably not "keep him in style", but I think that even those who had property in the UK were denied permission to enter.  I have to look it up, but I remember that Felix had a house he had owned from his college days.  It seems that another (possibly a cousin or Nicholas II ) also had property and was not allowed to come in.

But I think that the close relationships of the immediate Imperial Family probably had a lot to do with some getting in (like the aged Empress and Grand Duchess Ksenia) and not others.  I am sure that Parliament was thinking of incomes that might be "settled" on Romanov relations and in that era men were still expected to take care of themselves while women were more likely to have an income settled on them.

One other thought.  Queen Maud, who was Nicholas's cousin, and her husband are never mentioned as ones who might have asked Norway to take the family in.

Maud, of course, was also King George V's sister.

So many of the family both close and distant in relation died in poverty in France.  But they themselves had no idea how to make money by working and no idea of how to economize.

When thinking of all of the relatives scattered around Europe, it is strange that only Germany and Spain and perhaps in private Denmark and (some say) the UK were interested in helping.

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2011, 11:59:14 PM »
I am sure that Parliament was thinking of incomes that might be "settled" on Romanov relations
? ? ?
Why on Earth would the British parliament consider such a thing?

One other thought.  Queen Maud, who was Nicholas's cousin, and her husband are never mentioned as ones who might have asked Norway to take the family in.

The young Norwegian monarchy was too fragile. King Haakon had already been at odds with the government during WW1, because he was pro-British and the government strictly neutral with some German leanings. In fact, given Kaiser Wilhelm's popularity in Norway before WW1 and Norway's subsequent neutrality, the Kaiser would actually be a more likely candidate for asylum in Norway than "the bloody Romanovs". (Of course Maud, and Haakon too, would rather have welcomed any Romanov instead of the Kaiser, which they both despised.) Since Norway has a common border with Russia and the northernmost province Finnmark at the time still was a kind of colony under settlement, with fears of Finnish expansionist designs on it, it was of course very important to keep good relations with Russia.  
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 12:18:46 AM by Фёдор Петрович »

Alixz

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2011, 08:57:16 AM »
I don't think that Parliament would consider such a thing, but King George might.

Exactly who paid the whole bill for Ksenia's "grace and favor" mansion or the income that was settled on the Dowager Empress.

I know that King George had his "own" income, but in fact much of the money used for all royal support came from the UK taxpayer.

Multiply that by all of the other Romanov relations and their descendants (like Ksenia's children) and the bill grows out of all proportion.

Even when Windsor Castle burned in 1997, the first thing that was on everyone's mind was who would pay for the repairs and should the Queen pay out of her "own" income or should the taxpayer fund them.

It would look from that scenario 80 years later, that the mansion "given" to Ksenia was supported by public monies and not by King George alone.  But two elderly women (one Aunt and one Cousin - even though Ksenia did have some of her many children with her) is a long shot from all of the Grand Dukes and their spouses who were just a poor.

Again, we look at those countries for which these exiled Russians had fought and for which many had lost not only their homes but members of their families and find that those countries did not want them.

It only occurred to me that King George might have asked Parliament to settle incomes on some of these poor relations.

I wonder what prompted the Queen of the Netherlands to offer succor to Kaiser Wilhelm while those who were fighting in the Entente did nothing for the Romanovs.

It probably came down to money.  And, of course, the "bad" reputation of the Romanovs in the European community of countries.




Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2011, 10:03:19 AM »
I don't think that Parliament would consider such a thing, but King George might.
Oh, so you're thinking that parliament vetoed any grand dukes coming over because they were afraid the King would grant them huge allowances? That's an odd thought and besides, such an executive decision (not allowing the grand dukes in) was the government's, not parliament's, to make.

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Exactly who paid the whole bill for Ksenia's "grace and favor" mansion or the income that was settled on the Dowager Empress.
I assume both Frogmore Cottage and Wilderness House were Crown Estate properties. So the question must be who paid the coal bill. The income that was settled on the Dowager Empress was of course paid by the King, probably through the Privy Purse.

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I know that King George had his "own" income, but in fact much of the money used for all royal support came from the UK taxpayer.
Remember that only since the People's Budget of 1909 had the British tax system started to redistribute wealth instead of preserving inherited wealth. Thus it was still a novel concept that the Crown Estate, whose income the monarch surrendered to the government in return for a civil list, belonged to the nation and not to the wearer of the crown.

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Even when Windsor Castle burned in 1997, the first thing that was on everyone's mind was who would pay for the repairs and should the Queen pay out of her "own" income or should the taxpayer fund them.
Just shows you how much had changed since the People's Budget.

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It only occurred to me that King George might have asked Parliament to settle incomes on some of these poor relations.
That would have been political suicide. Not only the Labour Party, but also High Tory Lords would have protested against Britons paying for "damn foreigners" who now were politically lame ducks.  

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I wonder what prompted the Queen of the Netherlands to offer succor to Kaiser Wilhelm while those who were fighting in the Entente did nothing for the Romanovs.

It is important to realize that while Wilhelm II was seen as pompous and war-mongering, he was also regarded as far less reactionary than Nicholas II, especially in neutral countries like the Netherlands. Wilhelm II started his reign with settling strikes (he threatened the employers with withdrawing his troops and leaving their villas to the angry mobs, lest they agree the to the workers' demands) and re-legalizing the Socialist Party, while Nicholas II was forever tainted as "the bloody Tsar" who shot down his own striking people.  

I don't think it had any direct effect, but it is interesting to consider that just when the Kaiser arrived in the Netherlands, the Socialist Troelstra was trying to bring about a Dutch revolution, while the Prime Minister, Charles Ruijs de Beerenbrouck, was the son of the minister responsible for the first Dutch social legislation with regard to work.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 10:34:24 AM by Фёдор Петрович »

Offline TimM

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2011, 10:45:18 AM »
Well, there was France, but they turned them away too.

Mind you, France was happy to accept the likes of Baby Doc Duvalier when he was ousted from power in Haiti in the 1980's.
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Alixz

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2011, 10:51:48 AM »
And in later years, the US took in the Shah of Iran and also the Marcos's.  I think, though, that these countries learned an important historical lesson from shunning the Tsar.

Innocent people can get hurt - as in the Grand Duchesses and Alexei.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 01:22:53 PM by Alixz »

Robert_Hall

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2011, 01:00:58 PM »
The US never actually took the Shah in.  He was allowed in  for medical treatment, just a few weeks and then promptly sent on his way. He  was an exile in  several countries before dieing in Egypt, where he is buried [with King Farouk, oddly]

Alixz

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2011, 01:30:42 PM »
Robert - I did some research and, as always, you are right.

Beset by advanced cancer, the shah left Iran in January 1979 to begin a life in exile. He lived in Egypt, Morocco, the Bahamas, and Mexico before going to the United States for treatment of lymphatic cancer. His arrival in New York City led to the Iranian takeover of the American Embassy in Tehran by "Students of Imam's Line" and the taking hostage of more than 50 Americans for 444 days.

The Shah died in Cairo, Egypt, on July 27, 1980.


I didn't know, though, that the arrival in the US of the Shah lead to the takeover of the American Embassy in Tehran and the Iranian Hostage Crises.  I guess at the time, I didn't think about one thing affecting the other.

Robert_Hall

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2011, 01:44:03 PM »
This Hostage Crisis  issue is still debated.  The Shah may have been part of it, but  he was not the only catalyst.  ALL western powers who formerly supported his regime were targeted is one way or the other. The new BA facilities set up for the  debut of the Concord was burned down for instance.
 The Pahlavis and their court had  a lot of luxury property in the US and  for the most part, had no problem  coming here. Even the Empress Farah Diba settled in the US with the children after her husband's death,
« Last Edit: March 30, 2011, 02:01:06 PM by Alixz »

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2011, 01:56:24 PM »
Wilhelm II started his reign with settling strikes (he threatened the employers with withdrawing his troops and leaving their villas to the angry mobs, lest they agree the to the workers' demands)
Oops, that should read: ..., if they didn't agree to the workers' demands.)

Alixz

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2011, 02:01:45 PM »
This Hostage Crisis  issue is still debated.  The Shah may have been part of it, but  he was not the only catalyst.  ALL western powers who formerly supported his regime were targeted is one way or the other. The new BA facilities set up for the  debut of the Concord was burned down for instance.
 The Pahlavis and their court had  a lot of luxury property in the US and  for the most part, had no problem  coming here. Even the Empress Farah Diba settled in the US with the children after her husband's death,

I read that the Shah's son committed suicide in Boston just this year.

Robert_Hall

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2011, 05:16:07 PM »
Yes, his youngest son. Very sad. The Crown Prince is still alive and noisy though. [also lives in the US New England last I heard.]

Naslednik Norvezhskiy

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2011, 06:50:13 AM »
I can't understand why all these deposed dictators can't be sent to live in Liechtenstein. It's probably where they have all their money stashed away anyway and it's the perfect place: A mini-state allied to a neutral state (Switzerland). Let them live out their lives among yodeling Alpine cowherd-bankers in a country no bigger than their former private compounds.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2011, 06:54:43 AM by Фёдор Петрович »

Offline mcdnab

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2011, 08:31:23 AM »
From memory

The bulk of the allowances that George V paid to the Grand Duchess Xenia and the Empress Dowager would come from what then would have been regarded as private income. Certainly the property that she occupied seems to have been maintained at what now might be regarded public expense (althout at that time the board of public works would have had responsibility for all these occupied Royal buildings) - it seems that as a grace and favour resident even then it was practice for people to pay for any works done however the King made it explicit that he didn't want the Grand Duchess bothered with such matters and one assumes he picked up the costs.
I also believe that initially Xenia rented a property for herself in London before George V eventually stepped in after her various financial problems and embarrasments - I think the best look at her life in exile is in the excellent "Once a Grand Duchess" which I heartily recomend to any who haven't already read it.
I know that later in the war the Grand Duke MIchael Alexandrovitch was still paying rent for the English Country house he'd rented whilst in exile before the war - he was apparently asked to stop sending money to the Princess Victoria for expenses with regard his English property. After the war his wife and son lived in England until she moved to France (where it was cheaper to live)
Grand Duke George Michaelovitch's wife (the former Princess Marie of Greece) remained in England throughout the war with her daughters.
Grand Duke Michael Michaelovitch and his morganatic wife were already living in England before the Revolution - their daughter's marriages saved them from financial ruin after the revolution though.
Grand Duke Dimitri Pavlovitch ended up in Britain after the war to the fury of the Foreign Office solely due to the independent view of the British Ambassador in Tehran.
I don't think there was any bar on Felix Yusupov visiting England (where he did have an apartment) he did visit as did his wife when they could afford too which wasn't often.

Offline Michael HR

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Re: What did King George the Vth do in England to help his Imperial Cousins
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2011, 09:15:14 AM »
Interesting thread. Always thought George V a swine but maybe history will prove this wrong. Eddie etc was most helpful. I have always thought however that the King realized the danger and outcome he would have acted quite differently. Of course we shall never know now. Had the IF been moved to a coastal area it would have been easier perhaps to save them rather then being in the Urals.
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