Author Topic: Future of the Russian Government  (Read 17377 times)

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Patrick Dooley

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Future of the Russian Government
« on: January 29, 2004, 04:53:42 PM »
With all the uncertainty in Russia today.  Is there any credible talk in government circles about restoring the
old imperial order, similar to that of Great Britan.

Offline Sushismom

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Re: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2004, 01:49:21 PM »
I couldn't imagine that Russia would have the financial capability to restore the monarchy. Even if they did decide to do so, who would be crowned? And under a constitutional monarchy, would he still be called Tsar?

Offline investigator

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Re: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2004, 02:07:43 AM »
Keeping the current economic situation of Russia in mind i dont think that the Russian monarchy will be restored.  
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Offline BobAtchison

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Re: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2004, 10:48:30 AM »
If there were a viable candidate from the Romanov family who had the guts to 'go for it' I think it could happen.  Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your point of view about royalty), no Romanov candidate is at hand.  I haven't heard anything about Grand Duchess Maria and her son George for a while.  Has anyone else?  george should be around 18-19 now - right?

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2004, 11:49:09 PM »
George is in his early 20's and has graduated from university. He needs to work for a living, whick limits the time he can spend as an active heir. He lives in the UK.

The RFA - representing all but a handful of surviving Romanov descendants - does not advocate a restoration of the monarchy until democracy is well established.

Offline God_save_the_Tsar

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Re: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2004, 12:32:57 PM »
Certainly the biggest problem is that there is no real Romanov heir to the throne. HIH, Grand Duke George is out of the question, there's a number of reasons to this.

When Spain restored their monarchy there was one single heir to the throne and his claim could not be questioned. This is not the case when it comes to the Imperial House of Romanov since there is simply no person that can live up to the demands made by HIM, the Emperor Paul in 1797.  :(


Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2004, 02:26:13 PM »
I don't agree that there's no Romanov heir.

While there are disputes as to George's suitability, the Fundamental Law as many interpret it does make him the heir. If you accept that the male dynastic line is extinct, then Vladimir's daughter and hence her son are the Romanov heirs, and the only ones.

OTOH, an argument can be made that after the Revolution, dynastic marriages were no longer possible for Romanov dynasts and thus marriages to "women of good character" are acceptable and does not preclude the issue of such marriages from being dynasts.

I am more inclined to the second argument but am really not in any place to do anything but comment.

This will all be resolved IMHO when and if George marries. If he is able to marry dynastically and sire heirs, then the first position will prevail. If he either does not marry or marries "unequally" or dynastically with no issue, then he will have to resolve certain issues with his cousins.

There is dispute about the succession only because the Fundamental Law did not address the eventuality of the dynasty being deposed.

Chris Snyder

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Re: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2004, 05:21:56 PM »
Wasn't it Grand Duke Cyril who was the first member of the Romanov family to break his oath of allegience to the Tsar in 1917?  Under the Fundamental Laws he would be considered a traitor, so would his family or descendents even be able to sit on the throne?  I understand that George (Cyril's great grandson) is a Romanov heir and descendent, but would he be eligible under the Fundamental Laws to be the Tsar because of this?

Offline Sushismom

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Re: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2004, 12:34:10 PM »
There are also a couple of other problems with George. First, Cyril and Ducky were first cousins, something the Russian Orthodox Church (and Nicholas II) frowned upon. Second, Cyril's mother did not convert until after her children were born.

Offline LisaDavidson

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Re: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2004, 11:10:58 PM »
While it is true that Kirill openly broke his oath to Nicholas, two points are salient here. One, there is nothing within the Fundamental Law which bars a traitorous heir from the throne. You could argue that such an heir would be morally unfit, but the law itself protects heirs from being excluded. Second, nearly all the Romanov agnates broke their oaths to Nicholas, it's just that Nicholas never made these actions public. So, if you would exclude Kirill (even though it violates the FL), you would have to exclude nearly every other Romanov alive in 1917 and their descendants.

Regarding problems with Kirill's marriage or his mother's religion excluding Kirill or his descendants, neither argument stands up. While Orthodoxy does frown on cousin marriages, there is no particular problem with 1st cousin marriages. Even so, the approval of the Tsar was considered to be all the dispensation needed for a cousin marriage, and clearly, Nicholas approved Kirill's marriage, albiet considerably after the fact. Kirill was listed as an agnate in every court circular from this approval through the Revolution. As to Maria Pavlovna's late conversion to Orthodoxy, it was customary for Romanov tsars to allow the German brides who joined the family and who did not marry heirs to the throne to keep their religion. The children of these marriages had full succession rights, so it appears the enforcement of this part of the FL allowed for late conversions such as Maria Pavlovna's in 1908. Again, all her sons (as well as the sons of Constantine, who also married a German bride) were listed as heirs to the succession in Court Circulars as long as they were published.

A source of all this confusion about what the Fundamental Law allows appears to be Massie. While a brilliant writer and historian, he is not well versed in this law, so one finds people repeating his arguments - few of which are valid.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by LisaDavidson »

Chris Snyder

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Re: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2004, 03:51:15 PM »
As there is no longer a "Russian Empire" for the Fundamental Law to apply to, all of this discussion doesn't really matter.  What matters is how the Russian people feel about this and if they would even want the Romanov Monarchy restored.  If so, they would be the ones to choose the new Tsar, regardless of this persons suitability to the old "Fundamental Laws".

Offline Nick_Nicholson

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Re: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2004, 05:11:04 PM »
Actually, there is a very interesting legal point which invalidates the Fundamental Laws.  Nicholas abdicated for himself and his son, in favor of his brother Michael (who was married morganatically to the Countess Brassova).  It is clear that in this instance, Tsar Nicholas overwrote the fundamental laws by naming Michael as his heir.  Had he cared about the fundamental laws, he would have abdicated in favor of his Cousin Kirill, who had not contracted a morganatic marriage.

In fact, Michael did reign as Emperor (albeit for about 24 hours) and in his own abdication, he said "I have taken the firm decision to accept sovereign authority only in the event that such will be the desire of our great nation, which by by means of a national referendum... shall determin the for mof policy and the new fundamental laws of the Russian State..."  In doing this, Michael essentially broke the hereditary chain, as Nicholas had before him.  Michael's edict left the choice of manner of government to the people through a referendum in the Duma.

If there is a restoration of the monarchy, the Duma will simply have to pick from the dozens of Romanov men available.  The wonderful Nicholas Romanov in Rome has always said a restoration of any candidate would be up to the will of the Russian people.  

Then again, they could always pick another Russian family -- remember, the Romanovs themselves were elected to the throne in 1613!  

Nick Nicholson
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Offline AnneS

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Operation Trest?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2004, 07:59:55 PM »
This may not be the right thread in which to post this question but I could not locate another place I thought appropriate.  

Does anyone know where I can learn more about Operation Trest?  I am having no luck with a quick Yahoo search.  
Truth, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2004, 08:41:05 PM »
Restoration of the monarchy:
there is no law that would make it necessary for the new candidate for "Tsar" be a Romanov is there ? Even the title is extinct- since Peter the Great, and "Emperor" is now inappropriate as there no  longer an "empire".
Any occupant of a new throne would have to be elected- just like the first Romanov was.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Robert_Hall

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r the subjRe: Future of the Russian Government
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2004, 08:50:12 PM »
oh, forgot..."Trest" is a medication for stomach and or bowel problems,  which can be considered appropriate for the subject of the Romanovs, I guess.  Otherwise, I have never heard of it.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.