Author Topic: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II  (Read 138341 times)

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Offline CountessKate

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #285 on: July 09, 2012, 08:12:04 AM »
Countess Kate
Can you just confirm that Wimbles is quoting a letter from Victoria Melita to Serge - it sounds like it but it's not entirely clear. This would have had to be written before Serge's death in January 1905, and so before VM's marriage to Kirill, which took place on 8 October 1905. Interesting that VM should treat Serge as a confidant.
I think your scenario is as plausible as the possibility that Kirill's affair was with a man. Indeed, unless a tranche of letters between Kirill and the object of his affections appears, we are unlikely ever to know.
Ann

John Wimbles states in his article that the letter was written to Grand Duke Serge by Victoria Melita in March 1902.  Apparently Serge had intimated to VM's mother concerning the stories going around that VM had sought a divorce with Kyrill's encouragement, so she wasn't necessarily treating Serge as a confident, but rather, vindicating her actions to her uncle (and former brother-in-law - my goodness these relationships were complicated). VM furthermore wrote in the letter that "I cannot believe that Ernie, who is the only person in this world who knows the truth, can have left you with this impression" - something Serge would have been in a good position to ascertain.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #286 on: July 09, 2012, 01:28:16 PM »
Countess Kate,

I talked to John Wimbles and he wasn't too happy with that article because it was censored, the truth was shielded and article was edited and he told me it doesn't make sense. I went to the Darmstadt achieves and they did not bat an eye on the theory that Ernie was gay, and he may have affairs with his "artistic" circles. When Ernie turned up sick after the trip to England, Ducky was kept out of the sick room (she had hoped to nurse Ernie herself - revealed in a letter to Missy). By the time he was well, Ducky noticed the "mask of civility" was back on. Ducky ended the letter saying the whole situation was "hopeless". So Kirill's weakness was a magnet to the more stronger personality of Ducky as it brought out the strong maternal instincts that she was capable. Which explains why Ducky could never be close to Miechen, one woman is enough in a man's life. The exact same senario happened in the case of Nicky & Alicky. In Kirill, Ducky fought hard for the "vacant" throne and did everything possible to achieve that. The fact that Kirill's fall hit Ducky so hard illustrates how much he meant to her from her divorce, remarriage, revolution, escape and rebuilding a life together. The fact that it was a man did bring back memories of her life with Ernie. Ernie's generous monetary offer to live an independent life with a lover would have been tempting to anybody but Ducky, who scoff at such hypocrisy. Living a lie was not her style at all. I do wonder the stress of living with her husband and act as if nothing was wrong would have been the main factor to her demise. Fate did played as cruel trick on her. 

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #287 on: July 09, 2012, 02:42:22 PM »
Thanks for this interesting insight into John Wimbles' article, and indeed his account of the actual process of the divorce is rather unclear.  Did he give any indication of what exactly had been excised, and why? 

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #288 on: July 09, 2012, 03:00:40 PM »
The edited article made the reason a bit obsure. The only thing I could think of maybe Ernie & his "gay circle". But the archives in Darmstadt had been quite open about that. Judging from the letters between Ducky & Missy, it seems like their inability to connect was the real reason for the breakdown of the marriage. The gay thing may have played a role, but one could see that since Ducky had stayed with Ernie for a long time, she would not have been unaware of it and made it known had that had been the deal breaker. It was the lie that Ducky cannot stomach any longer as there is no marriage to talk about. The sham marriage deal with Ernie would have been taken up had she been less insistent on truth in black and white. The fact that VMH was so understanding in her words on the subject of the divorce suggested that Ducky may have confided in her. Also Alicky did not came down hard on Ducky for her divorce than to her remarriage to Kirill. Which was a violation of the Orthodox Church rules stated in a document called "the rudder". It was the same rules that bar Ducky's sister Beatrice from marrying Misha, Nicky's own brother. Alicky had turned very devout and never did forgave Ducky for her violation and disobedience to the Tsar's ruling. That was the real reason for the cooling off between the cousins.

Offline Marie Valerie

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #289 on: July 11, 2012, 04:53:46 PM »
(I have posted this also in the Hohenzollern Section, but got no answers, so here a new try.)

Does anyone know if Grand Duchess Kira was allowed to stay orthodox after her wedding to Louis Ferdinand?

Elisabeth of Bavaria was a katholic and must agree to change her religion before her wedding to king Friedrich Wilhelm IV. of Prussia (she did this after 7 years of marriage, when she felt it was right for her).
King Friedrich Wilhelm III. thought a queen of prussia must be from the same religion like the majority of her subjects, was this still in use when LF and Kira married?
Or was it abolished after the lose of crown and power?

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #290 on: July 11, 2012, 06:42:26 PM »
Their first ceremony (the one not attended by Kaiser Wilhelm II) was in the Orthodox religion, wasn't it? With the 2nd ceremony, in Doorn, being a Protestant one?
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Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #291 on: July 11, 2012, 06:57:20 PM »
Yes, civil and Orthodox ceremonies were  held in Paris I think. The German royals houses, except for the Catholic ones, were not all that strict about forcing conversions  upon marriage. They had been providing princess to the Romanov's for centuries and vice verse.
 I would have to search out the obit for her, but I think  Kyra had  Orthodox funeral rites. This might indicate that she remained Orthodox throughtout her life.
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #292 on: July 11, 2012, 10:43:16 PM »
I think she remained at heart an Orthodox Christian. In the Prussian Royal Family, one has more problems with Catholic than orthodox. In fact, Prince Philip was born Orthodox, and he later became a god father to one of his Orthodox nephews. The British law only bars one from succeeding to the throne if married to a Catholic.

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #293 on: July 14, 2012, 04:03:31 PM »
Thanks for this interesting insight into John Wimbles' article, and indeed his account of the actual process of the divorce is rather unclear.  Did he give any indication of what exactly had been excised, and why?  

As far as I recall, it concerns Ernst's involvement in the Krupp scandal on Toarmina, and some quotes - quite well-known now - from James Lees-Milne on Ernst's interest in young boys. Excised because they offended the sensibilities of the RDQ editors, apparently.

I wrote an article around the same time on Ernst's trip to India for the 1902 Durbar - and although EL had long wanted to go to India, John told me he felt that the trip had been very convenient for everyone as it kept him away from erupting scandals in Europe over the collapse of his marriage and the reason for it.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2012, 04:07:37 PM by Janet Ashton »
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #294 on: July 15, 2012, 12:45:26 AM »
Thank you Janet for sharing the information. That would mean of course that Ducky was telling the truth about Ernie with the stable boys. According to Greg King, Ernie's brother-in-law Serge also favored young boys and his last victim was none other than his nephew Dmitri. It seems like it runs in the family...

Offline Stardust

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #295 on: July 15, 2012, 12:41:12 PM »
Thank you Janet for sharing the information. That would mean of course that Ducky was telling the truth about Ernie with the stable boys. According to Greg King, Ernie's brother-in-law Serge also favored young boys and his last victim was none other than his nephew Dmitri. It seems like it runs in the family...


Eric, Where did you find that information about serge and his nephew Dmitri pavlovich?

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #296 on: July 15, 2012, 02:16:32 PM »
From "The Court of the Last Tsar"  by Greg King pg. 80.

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #297 on: July 16, 2012, 04:07:00 AM »
The exact words in "The Court of the Last Tsar"  are "there were rumors that his [Serge's] young nephew Dimitri Pavlovich, had fallen victime to his sexual appetite."  The reference for this is "Private information to author" which is not illuminating. 

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #298 on: July 16, 2012, 10:45:29 AM »
I know. But I trust Greg King information. Most likely from the family circle. But it does look plausible since Dmitri did have a trouble sex life from Felix Yussopov to Coco Chanel. That would suggest (not confirm of course) that his entry into sex was anything but ordinary. Also since Felix was very close to Dmitri, and had a great dislike to Serge, that source might lead back to Dmitri. The interest thing is Dmitri did not bond with Serge as his sister did, but more towards Ella. Both Felix and Dmitri remained close to Ella, while Marie did not. 

Offline Mandie, the Gothic Empress

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Re: Grand Duke Kyrill, his wife Victoria Fedorovna and children, Part II
« Reply #299 on: July 16, 2012, 01:32:22 PM »
Thank you Janet for sharing the information. That would mean of course that Ducky was telling the truth about Ernie with the stable boys. According to Greg King, Ernie's brother-in-law Serge also favored young boys and his last victim was none other than his nephew Dmitri. It seems like it runs in the family...

I don't believe that Grand Duke Serge was gay at all, Western writers don't understand the Orthodoxy religion well enough nor do we know the true nature of Grand Duke Serge and Grand Duchess Ella's marriage, its a possibility that she cant conceive [just like other royal women- like for example -  Infanta Isabella of Spain (daughter of Queen Isabella), Marie Therese of France (daughter of Marie Antoniette and King Louis), Alexandrine of Baden the wife of her uncle the Duke of Coburg, her aunt Princess Louise, Duchess of Argyll - the list goes on and those women married young enough to have children!]. just because their childlessness, doesn't mean they never had sexual relations. Grand Duke Serge was VERY religious, and if there was no love between then, I think that Grand Duchess Ella would have never become a Nun, later Saint.

back to topic....
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 01:35:24 PM by Mandie, the Gothic Empress »