Author Topic: Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death  (Read 216490 times)

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Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2006, 08:59:40 AM »
Something would no doubt have started it anyway. The diplomatic sitiuation made this unevitable, actually. There would have been a different catalyst of course, but still, it would have happened. Rudolph woudn't have been able to cope with it that well, I don't think. Perhaps if he hadn't died it might have happened later, or in different circumstances, but I still see it happening.

Offline Marie Valerie

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2006, 11:39:37 AM »
Franz Ferdinand had died because of the "wrong wife", Franz Joseph and the Vienese Court were still bitter of the morganatic marriage to Sophie Chotek and get no security or more police men in Sarajewo, althrough they knew that there were assasins planned. And they let him die.

FJ, who visited the city a few years ealier, had masses of security and dangerous people were kept in prison until the Emperor leaves town.  But FJ disliked FF and did nothing to save him.


I think that a war would had started anyway, and Franz Ferdinand was the best reason at the moment.
Austria-Hungary was a sinking ship and the Ultimatum to Serbia was the last chance to get respect back, for the Monachy - not for Franz Ferdinand - in which name the war was started!

ilyala

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2006, 03:05:49 AM »
exactly. but had franz ferdinand not been heir to the throne, he wouldn't have been sent there in the first place, would he? and had they sent rudolf, they probably would have taken more care. which means that austria wouldn't have had a pretext to start the war. without a pretext the hostility could have been hidden for quite a while more.

it's just a interensting what if...

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2006, 09:40:53 AM »
Yes, with Rudolph, they would have taken more care. They would not allow him to be assinated, if they could help it anyway. Franz Joseph showed have cared more for the security arrangements of a member of his own dynasty, even though the guy married morgantically, I agree. That shows how deep alienation over morgantic marriages could go then, among European Royal families. Rudolph did not have the strength of character to be a successful Emperor, but perhaps his living longer might have prevented World War I through breaking out when it did, if there was no assaination.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by romanov_fan »

Offline Marie Valerie

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2006, 01:11:37 PM »
Quote
exactly. but had franz ferdinand not been heir to the throne, he wouldn't have been sent there in the first place, would he? and had they sent rudolf, they probably would have taken more care. which means that austria wouldn't have had a pretext to start the war. without a pretext the hostility could have been hidden for quite a while more.

it's just a interensting what if...


Franz Ferdinand did this fatale trip to Sarajevo because of Sophie Chotek.
He was lucky that his morganatic wife would get there all royal duties,
that were not allowed in Vienna or Austria.

The people in the Vienese court were very proud on their titles and ranks,
as a woman you were only accepted with 16 royal Ancestors.
That means if in your family one member married morganatic, you're Family tree was a waste...

I don't know if you saw pics of FF and Sophie's Coffins,
but they make the difference of their ranks even in death showable.
Sophie's coffin stand on the floor, FF's was put on a stand.



 

ilyala

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2006, 10:27:02 AM »
i got your point marie_valerie, but i was talking about something. about how rudolf's death influenced the first world war.

Offline Marie Valerie

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #51 on: May 13, 2006, 07:01:01 AM »
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i got your point marie_valerie, but i was talking about something. about how rudolf's death influenced the first world war.



Rudolf had no influence in WW1, he was already 25 years dead!


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Marie_Valerie »

YaBB_Jose

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #52 on: May 13, 2006, 11:59:45 AM »
Quote
exactly. but had franz ferdinand not been heir to the throne, he wouldn't have been sent there in the first place, would he? and had they sent rudolf, they probably would have taken more care. which means that austria wouldn't have had a pretext to start the war. without a pretext the hostility could have been hidden for quite a while more.

it's just a interensting what if...

FF would ALWAYS be the heir to the throne, considering that Rudolf only had one daughter.
So he might be sent to Serajevo anyway.
Does someone know how was the relation between Rudolf and FF ?
They had just 5 years difference.
Who knows, if Rudolf was the Emperor, he might have allowed FF's marriage to Sophie and not just a morganatic one.

ilyala

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #53 on: May 14, 2006, 05:15:09 AM »
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Quote
i got your point marie_valerie, but i was talking about something. about how rudolf's death influenced the first world war.



Rudolf had no influence in WW1, he was already 25 years dead!




LOL
let's repeat what i already said: had rudolf not died, franz ferdinand would not have been heir to the throne and most likely would not have gone to sarajevo... franz ferdinand assasination IN SARAJEVO was the pretext for the first world war. had he not died there (he or whoever would have been crown prince), there would have been no pretext and the hostilities would have probably been delayed a little. you said it yourself that franz ferdinand's security was deliberately not taken care of. had rudolf gone (assuming this was a visit that had to be done), there would have been more security, therefor no assasination, therefor no pretext...

are you starting to follow my logic?

Offline Marie Valerie

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #54 on: May 14, 2006, 09:11:12 AM »
Quote
LOL
let's repeat what i already said: had rudolf not died, franz ferdinand would not have been heir to the throne and most likely would not have gone to sarajevo... franz ferdinand assasination IN SARAJEVO was the pretext for the first world war. had he not died there (he or whoever would have been crown prince), there would have been no pretext and the hostilities would have probably been delayed a little. you said it yourself that franz ferdinand's security was deliberately not taken care of. had rudolf gone (assuming this was a visit that had to be done), there would have been more security, therefor no assasination, therefor no pretext...

are you starting to follow my logic?



But you can also blame Franz Joseph and Elisabeth that they only get one son!

You're right, Rudolf's influense in WW1 was his early dead - plus he had just a daughter...
I think if the throne was for his own son or grandson, maybe Franz Joseph hasn't rushed into war,
and tried to hold the Dual Monarchy together for his heir, but just for a nephew...
I also think that FJ was too old for a decision of peace or war,
his wife was murdered, his son dead and he might have died any day,
so nothing really mattered to him anymore.
All this and the complete support of Germany under Kaiser Wilhelm II. the war was unvitable.

 


Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2006, 04:06:48 PM »
I defintely agree with Ilyala's logic. Rudolph, although long dead, had an influence on the events that lead to World War I by not being there. If he had, it might have gone differently, although that woudn't have prevented it at all. Franz Joseph may not have cared that much about events at the time of World War I. He was indeed very old to care, and had been through so much. He indeed might have cared had he still had an heir descended from him.

Agneschen

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2006, 05:37:49 AM »
Rudolf would probably have been dead & buried long before WWI started anyway ...

ilyala

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2006, 09:09:21 AM »
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Rudolf would probably have been dead & buried long before WWI started anyway ...


we don't know that for sure. just look at carlos 2nd of spain. he was so sick from birth that no-one thought he'd survive to adulthood and yet he lived to be 40. we cannot know what would have happened if we take out mayerling. maybe, had he stayed alive and sane, he would have already dealt with the empire business, franz joseph being indeed very old and probably just waiting to die... then maybe things would have been different... cause while franz joseph was loyal to germany, rudolf admired france...

Offline Romanov_fan

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2006, 02:49:43 PM »
While he might have been dead and buried by then, his influence whether he was there or not would have been felt. As well, even by not being there, he still had influence, not only because of who he was, but because of the world of the time, as it was. Rudolph may have worked things out in his life, we will never know, but he seemed on the wrong track to me anyway.

paola

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Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2006, 03:07:57 PM »
Indeed....had Rudolph lived longer,  the course of events might have been different. But by the time of Mayerling, Rudolph was already quite ill with a venereal disease (gonohrrea). WWI started 25 years after his death, so it could be that he was already dead.