Re: Crown Prince Rudolph--controversies, affairs & his death

[oscarov]

Hello, it is pleasant to me to greet it, I am trying to look for some volunteer of the Hapsburg Family for the chromosome Y, for a mitocondrial test, in another forum of royalty they commented to me that a test of mitocondrial DNA can be done, on the part of the breast or aunts of Maria Antonia to be able to know if exists a decendencia on the part of the Tuscan line. I am thankful for its commentaries to him, itself in my investigation, you know you something of a sword of silver with gold  to Rudol prince? approximately in 1880. Marie Charlotte years ago in this forum put a photo of a son of Rudolf prince, somebody podria to resend it to me, or to insert it in this forum again? greetings to all from Mexico

[Linnie]

I find it hard to understand the postings here because I believe that they were machine-translated, and English is not my first language. The translation doesn't read wel at alll. Too bad! And I would assume that Rudolf wasn't born in 1878!

[Linnie]

Here is an excerpt from Richard Berkeley's book about Mary Vetsera: She was not a cold-headed and cold-hearted schemer: she was warm-hearted, a little empty-headed perhaps, but she gave him the warmth of a little animal. Like a prisoner, who can lose his heart to a mouse sharing his cell, so Rudolph lost his heart to Mary, who understood nothing of politics and did not care for them, but who knew with the safe instinct of her womanhood that his aching nerves needed peace.
(pp. 208-209)

[Yelena Aleksandrovna]

Long time ago I read the two stangest verssions for Rudolph's death.

Rudolph's parents said that he died for a heart disease, but people
didn't believe the official explanation and many strange rumours
were invented.

1) Rudolph decided to suicide because he dicovered that Mary Vetsera was
her half sister.
2) (Even worse) Rudolph discovered that Mary Vetsera was really his daugther.

It's impossible that Mary's mother would have an affair with the young price, he
was just 14 years old when Mary was born. And also I don't believe that Mary's
mother would have an affair with the Emperor Franz Joseph.

Strange verssions. Don't you think??

[myhusbandswife]

I found a picture of Mary's grave, if anyone is interested.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mayerling20.jpg

[Imperial_Grounds]

Yes, a friend of mine visited Heiligenkreuz to see Mary's grave when she was in Vienna, there she saw 'Rudolf - Affaire Mayerling' - a musical based on the life of Rudolf and the events surrounding his death and that of Mary. I intend to visit the convent, at the Mayerling-estate, and the graveyard on which Mary is burried someday too.

I have seen lots of movies on the event, and soon will see 'Kronprzin Rudolfs Letze Liebe' which has been filming at the graveyard, like 'The Crown Prince' from 2006 was.

Here is a video of mine, some kind of tribute to Rudolf and Mary, using footage from movies, and musical-versions on the events - pictures also are used.

anyway, if anyone likes to see it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdzD7c6TEgc&feature=channel_page

[Ozymandias]

At sum point when Rudolf was a student, he had an affair with an older women a Graduate style affair you could say (with reference to the film The Graduat)
Who was the woman and what did she look like?

Archduchess Maria Antonia Archduchess of Habsburg-Tuscany (Married In Secret)
I'm just curious to know what Maria Antonia looked like?
If Rudolf was married to Maria Antonia wouldn't that make him a bigamist, when he married Stephanie.

Stephanie Princess of Belgium (Wife)
Child, Archduchess Elisabeth Marie "Erzsi"
We all know what Stephanie Princess of Belgium looked like


Baroness MariaVetsera (Mistress)
We all know what  Maria Vetsera lookd like, we all know what we think happened.


Was there any other affairs, I'm just curious to know?

[Greenowl]

Was there any other affairs, I'm just curious to know?

Were there any other affairs? Yes indeed, the Crown Prince had a vast number of affairs, both before and during his marriage.

[Imperial_Grounds]

Yes he had many affairs, it was rumoured that Rudolf had an affair with Mary's mother years before. But there is no proof of that. At the time of his romance with Mary Vetsera he also, still, was intimate with his 'official misstress' Mizzi Caspar.

[Madame-Sisi]

Long time ago I read the two stangest verssions for Rudolph's death.

Rudolph's parents said that he died for a heart disease, but people
didn't believe the official explanation and many strange rumours
were invented.

1) Rudolph decided to suicide because he dicovered that Mary Vetsera was
her half sister.
2) (Even worse) Rudolph discovered that Mary Vetsera was really his daugther.

It's impossible that Mary's mother would have an affair with the young price, he
was just 14 years old when Mary was born. And also I don't believe that Mary's
mother would have an affair with the Emperor Franz Joseph.

Strange verssions. Don't you think??

thats the funiest thing i've ever heard.. but i do know about other theories...
that can be true.. i will post them later

[IrinaAlexandrovna]

Yes i agree with Madame-Sisi....Hah really awful explanations...and i would never believe this...

[Madame-Sisi]

The initial official explanation for the incident was that Rudolf had suffered heart failure; Vetsera was not mentioned and her body was secretly buried. However, the official story did not hold up well, and it later was admitted that Rudolf had committed suicide. Many stories were floated about the pair’s death, with the most widely accepted being that the two lovers had carried out a suicide pact after Franz Joseph demanded they separate. Rudolf shot his mistress in the head, then sat by her body for several hours before shooting himself. A special dispensation from the Vatican was obtained, declaring Rudolf to be in a state of “mental imbalance” in order for Rudolf to be buried in the Imperial Crypt.

Notably, it has been rumoured that Empress Zita, (1892 - 1989), widow of the last Emperor, Karl (r: 1916-1918) and last surviving Crowned head from The Great War, claimed that the Crown Prince was murdered, and the crime was disguised as a double suicide.[citation needed] The responsible party were Austrian security officials, in response to the Prince’s suspected pro-Hungarian sympathies, or French agents because he refused to participate in the deposition of his pro-German father. No evidence has been discovered to support either of these theories.

From Wikipedia.
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At the beginning they told he had a heartfaillure and there was no girl at the crime scene..l
then there was..
i have also heard they were forced to wrote the suicide letters by the people who killed them..
or did they willingly wrote the letters and killed eachother like it is known to everyone?
so many quations..and still unanswered.

why did they distroyed the evidence? why build a chapel in the room they were found dead?
and so there are more questions 2 ask..
why did rudolf  wore gloves on in his funural? and it was not allowed that the empress would see his hands..? because they were wounded?
why was all the evidence that was not destroyed hidden and why were people forced not to talk about the things they have seen or heard?

 A resulting re-examination of files about the death of the Crown Prince revealed major discrepancies between the claimed manner of the deaths and the factual evidence. At one point it was claimed that six shots were fired from the weapon, which did not belong to Rudolf. The initial report stated that only one shot was fired, instantly killing the Crown Prince, which raises the question of how the remaining five bullets were fired. This information suggests that Rudolf had engaged in a violent struggle before his death. However, an examination of the Papal Dispensation issued to allow Rudolf’s Christian burial asserts that only one shot was fired.

why is/was it not allowed 2 open the graves for re-examination? because it would proofe something different than whe should know?
All the major players in the Incident have died, most without publicly commenting on the tragedy..why?

In December 1992, the cemetery at Heiligenkreuz was vandalized and Mary Vetsera's remains were stolen. Upon recovery they were examined to ensure that they were the correct remains. The findings again contradicted the official reports that she had been shot; her skull showed no evidence of bullet wounds or shrapnel. Instead, the evidence indicated that she had been beaten to death.

so much is different then the first story they told that he shot her and commited suicide.. its strange and i really would like answers to my questions.. its time the real truth came out!
was it a murder with political backgrounds? or was it a family matter(from both sides..the imperial or the vetsera familys)? or was it indeed suicide? maybe some revenge?

Lets find it out! its time too unravel this mystery..the truth has been burried for so long..lets dig it up..for some things are not ment to be a secret!

[Imperial_Grounds]

Yes, such a mystery... I have heard that the remains that are reburied in Mary's grave may in fact not even be her. It is possible, after all in '45 the Russians opened the grave, and from what I have heard paying little respect to the dead, or giving any notice of who lay in the grave, and so it could be possible the wrong remains were buried. Again in the 90's her grave was opened and the remains stolen. It was said that the remains were taken back, but again it could be that the wrong remains were reburied.

I do not know what to believe, perhaps Rudolf killed Mary and himself - I think that happened - but I do not believe it was the romantic tragedy we have been told. He may have cared for her and longed for her as he has other mistresses, she may have adored him as a teenager adores her idol, but I do not believe it was the true tragic love. Rudolf just didn't want to die alone, No matter how romantic and dramatic the movies are, almost all they depict tragic love, it is not sure if that is the truth.

But then again, it was at first said that Rudolf and Mary died in short time of each other, but there were several hours between their death, and also I am wondering too why the Empress was not allowed to see the hands of her son, or to why all evidence has been destroyed - Ofcourse the Emperor may have wanted to keep to the original story of heart failure, thus destroying all evidence of Mary's death at Mayerling. Also her mother was forbidden to speak of the events, so it is possible the Emperor simply didn't want it to be known - and also I would love Rudolf's remains to be examined, and those that lay in Mary's grave - so they can perhaps be identified as Mary, but for now it all remains a mystery.

I recently received a copy of the movie 'Le Secret De Mayering', which is in French, retelling the story of Rudolf and Mary as a romance indeed but not as the tragic, doomed love, as it always is shown. This movie states that the couple was assassinated - we can see a gun pointed at them, but do not see them being shot, though someone escapes the room by the open window after their death - and uses several sources, Countess Larich's book for one - now that is mostly credited as a book full of lies, but this movie also shows that conspiracies always will be believed until the truth is completely out in the open. I have posted screens and more on this movie in the thread about movies on Sisi.

[Greenowl]

Rudolph's parents said that he died for a heart disease, but people
didn't believe the official explanation and many strange rumours ere invented.

One must bear in mind the fact that Emperor Franz Joseph and Empress Elisabeth were not aware of the true cause of their son's death until 6h00 on the morning of January 31st when Dr. Hermann Widerhofer, Franz-Joseph's personal physician, who had headed the medical commission that was sent to Mayerling the previous afternoon, made his report. Up to that time they were under the impression that the Crown Prince had been poisoned by Mary Vetsera, as that was what Count Hoyos said when he arrived in Vienna with the dreadful news. It was the Prime Minister, Count Taffee, who wrote the official bulletin for the newspapers at midday on January 30th which stated: "His Imperial and Royal Highness, the most serene Crown Prince, Archduke Rudolf died suddenly of heart failure". Strangely enough, even Mary's mother did not question the fact that her daughter was said to have poisoned the Crown Prince. Obviously the presence of Mary was a great scandal that had to be hushed up at all costs, and from that time until the end of the monarchy, her presence at the side of the Crown Prince was never officially admitted.

I find it difficult to believe in the murder theory, as after Mary "went missing" on the morning of January 28th her sister Hanna discovered a suicide note in her (Mary's) bedroom, which read "Dear Mother, by the time you read this I will be in the Danube", so Mary was obviously aware of what was going to happen well in advance and due to her infatuation with Rudolf was willing to do anything that he asked her. However, I often wonder whether the note was motivated by a subconscious desire to prevent her death? I think that Rudolf was very wrong and selfish to have used Mary in such a way and taken advantage of her youthful devotion. He should have known better.

[Madame-Sisi]

.

I find it difficult to believe in the murder theory, as after Mary "went missing" on the morning of January 28th her sister Hanna discovered a suicide note in her (Mary's) bedroom, which read "Dear Mother, by the time you read this I will be in the Danube",

well that certainly did not happen...
well..now im getting a new thought..
maybe Rudolf in the end refused mary..or did as his father asked him..abandon mary... that she was so "love sick" she only wanted to die and maybe throw herself in the danube..
(when u really love someone in a foolish mood u also will be like i kill myself..if that person doesnt want you or you cant have him because of everybody around you so its forbidden..)
maybe she got a message 2 meet up with rudolf in mayerling..without any plans of committing suicide.. when they were 2 gether they maybe got forced 2 wrote more letters..like the letters of rudolf.. and they got murdered...by somebody for maybe political reasons or someone who took care of this family matter..

its only i thouht of me..like a new possibility..so dont atack me for having a open mind on this kind of things