Pre revolution spoken Russian

[Forum Admin]

Tante Lilly told me specifically that the Russian upper class accent was most specific and any "middle" or "lower" class pronunciation learned from nurses would not be tolerated. Remember that Alexandra got rid of the girls' first Scottish nurse because their English was starting to have a Scots pronunciation and that would not do.  Further, the upper class Petersburg accent was distinct from the Moscow accent, and that after the Revolution, in Paris, she could always tell the Petersburg from the Moscow (and each thought their accent was more "proper"... Moscow thought the Petersburg had been too influenced by French, Petersburg thought the Moscow was less "civilized". LOL)

[Alixz]

What a complex problem it must have been to parents.  They wanted "English" nannies, but they also wanted their children to speak proper Russian.

It is well known that children pick up language skills at a very young age in a much easier way then trying to learn as adults.  They spoke in the way the heard adults around them speaking.

If the adults (nannies and nurses) had accents from other countries or other parts of Russia then the children would most naturally learn that from hearing it constantly.

[TimM]

Already we have combined the names of Hollywood Celebrities  Ben and Jennifer are Benifer.  Tom and Katie became TomKat

That's true as well.

[Fyodor Petrovich]

Tim is right.  Already we have combined the names of Hollywood Celebrities  Ben and Jennifer are Benifer.  Tom and Katie became TomKat.
We are not too far from Newspeak as we "speak".

What on Earth do these trivial nicknames of insignificant pop idols from Lala-Land have to do with the serious, political issue of Newspeak? To call the War in Iraq "Operation Iraqi Freedom", that is Newspeak, as negative or problematic words such as "war" do not exist in Newspeak, according to Orwell. (Unless it's in a totally positive, but hollow propaganda sense, as in "The War on Terror".)

I believe that Orwell was ahead of his time as are most SciFi writers.

As great as many sci-fi writers are, none (?) of them prophecized the thing that is currently changing our world the most: The Internet.  

And, in case you have forgotten, "Big Brother Is Watching You" and has been for a very long time.

My neighbours are watching me too. Should that make me feel secure or scared?

Tante Lilly told me specifically that the Russian upper class accent was most specific and any "middle" or "lower" class pronunciation learned from nurses would not be tolerated. (...) Further, the upper class Petersburg accent was distinct from the Moscow accent, and that after the Revolution, in Paris, she could always tell the Petersburg from the Moscow (and each thought their accent was more "proper"... Moscow thought the Petersburg had been too influenced by French, Petersburg thought the Moscow was less "civilized". LOL)

Yeah, but hasn't anybody described what these differences amounted to in practical terms?

Remember that Alexandra got rid of the girls' first Scottish nurse because their English was starting to have a Scots pronunciation and that would not do.

She was Irish. (But, interestingly, Protestant and had worked in Belfast, with its strong Scottish connections.)

[Alixz]

Our current political correctness is a huge example of Newspeak.  We no longer call a problem and problem - it is an issue.

As you said, we no longer go to war - we do "police duty" or some other such "gentler" term.  But as to naming the "operations" that has been going on since the second world war.  It is nothing new.

Also, have you read Orwell's 1984?  Big Brother is Watching You means that nothing you do or say will go unnoticed by the government and that makes me feel very "Unsafe".  Also everyone in 1984 has to take their "medication" or "happy pill".  The population was kept quite and easily managed.  Also sounds like just about every anger management ruling and medication prescription being given out to hundreds of thousands on a daily basis.

And sci fi writers have predicted the Internet, but not as a whole.  I remember reading a book when I was younger (not by one of the flashy better known authors) where he predicted (in his story line) that we would get our newspapers from a machine that printed them out right in our own home from a general source.  Sounds like the Internet and a home computer and a printer to me.

Also in his story, glasses were an anachronism and everyone either had surgery or wore contact lenses.  Everyone had air conditioning in their homes and cars.

This book was written in the 1950s.

But this has nothing to do with pre revolutionary spoken Russia, so we should probably get back to that topic.

[Fyodor Petrovich]

I am glad we agree on Newspeak being something more serious than stupid celebrity nicknames.

Also, have you read Orwell's 1984?

No, but I'm quite familiar with its content and message.

Also everyone in 1984 has to take their "medication" or "happy pill".  The population was kept quite and easily managed.  Also sounds like just about every anger management ruling and medication prescription being given out to hundreds of thousands on a daily basis.

Good point.

And sci fi writers have predicted the Internet, but not as a whole.  I remember reading a book when I was younger (not by one of the flashy better known authors) where he predicted (in his story line) that we would get our newspapers from a machine that printed them out right in our own home from a general source.  Sounds like the Internet and a home computer and a printer to me.

Not exactly, since he didn't predict the interactivity, boundlessness and new, virtual reality of the Internet.

BTW for those of you prescriptivists who deplore the decay of modern language usage, here is a royalty-themed example which even I bemoan: Chequy vs. Battenburg

[TimM]

As great as many sci-fi writers are, none (?) of them prophecized the thing that is currently changing our world the most: The Internet.

 

Arthur C. Clarke wrote a short story in 1965 called Dial F For Frankenstein.  It said story, there is an Internet like AI that causes major problems.

[Fyodor Petrovich]

Arthur C. Clarke wrote a short story in 1965 called Dial F For Frankenstein.  It said story, there is an Internet like AI that causes major problems.

Interesting, as I see that one of the inventors of the web, Sir Tim Berners-Lee, credits it as an inspiration.

[Alixz]

The topic is  PRE REVOLUTION SPOKEN RUSSIAN.

[Mike]

Well, putting the discussion back on track -

Educated people in pre-revolutionary Russia were using two major types of pronounciation: (1) St-Petersburgian and (2) Moscowian. Type 1 was conceived as more stringent and official, with all the letters clearly pronounced. Many users - government officials, officers and their families - were ethnic Germans, Swedes, Poles and other non-native or first-generation speakers. The standard of Type 1 pronounciation was defined and maintained by the actors of Imperial Alexandriinsky theater in SPb. Type 2 was viewed as more liberal, easy-going and genuinely Russian, without foreign influences. Its standard was maintained by the actors of Imperial Maly theater in Moscow.
The differences between these two types are alive even today - but after the revolution the Moscow pronounciation is considered more official, while Type 1 remained the distinction and pride of inteligentsia and back in the 40s-50s was conceived as a certain "ancien regime" feature.

[Sunny]

I know this is the thread for spoken russian, but i didn't know where to put my question.
I've studied russian, and i am completely sure i've always written the name Tatiana this way: TAT'JANA = Татьяна
But in a postcard of OTMA formal photo 1906, i saw it this way: Татіана. I already knew that before 1917 they wrote я as "ia" but why didn't they put я? I'm stunned because this change the pronunciation!

This is the pic.  http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/204/1906otma3.jpg/

Thanks!

[Marshall II]

I read somewhere that russian aristocrats spoke russian with a french accent. Is this accurate as far a describing the pre-revolution aristocratic russian accent?

[Forum Admin]

No. Pre Revolutionary Russian was not with a "French" accent.  There was distinct difference, however, between the Petersburg and Moscow aristocratic accents.  Moscow accused P'burg of sounding more "European" and that theirs was the "true Russian"...P'burg of course thought Moscow was more "provincial"...LOL

[Sunny]

There was distinct difference, however, between the Petersburg and Moscow aristocratic accents.  Moscow accused P'burg of sounding more "European" and that theirs was the "true Russian"...P'burg of course thought Moscow was more "provincial"...LOL

I read about it in "Doctor Zhivago"

[Inok Nikolai]

I know this is the thread for spoken russian, but i didn't know where to put my question.
I've studied russian, and i am completely sure i've always written the name Tatiana this way: TAT'JANA = Татьяна
But in a postcard of OTMA formal photo 1906, i saw it this way: Татіана. I already knew that before 1917 they wrote я as "ia" but why didn't they put я? I'm stunned because this change the pronunciation!

This is the pic.  http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/204/1906otma3.jpg/

Thanks!

It is simply the difference between the older, fuller forms of first names (which nowadays are considered the "Church" spelling, since they correspond to the Saints' names as they occur in religious texts) and the more popular shorter forms:

Татiана / Татьяна

Илiя / Илья

Димитрiй / Дмитрий

Сергiй / Сергей