Interesting facts about Marie Stuart

[helenazar]

Mary was pregnant when she married Bothwell and she most probably knew when she married him, in haste...
 
 

Tsaria, thanks for sharing all this, very interesting. Do you think that Mary actually married Bothwell because she knew she was already pregnant? I didn't realize that this was the case and was always wondering what would have possesed her to do it, knowing how everyone would have felt about that.  

[Martyn]

That is a good question Helen.  What do you think Tsaria?  It seemed to me that it was a mixture of political expediency and the possibility that she had been compromised (and possibly expecting) that precipitated the marriage....Antonia Fraser certainly implies that it wasn't a love match.

[bluetoria]

Thank you, Goula, for that very informative posting. I had no idea about those two different meanings & it certainly throws a whole new light on the subject.

[ChristineM]

Goula - what a meaty subject.   In so far as Mary is concerned, I think you are right in your definition and conclusion that the Dunbar episode was a combination of both.

Scots law was, and still is, different to English law.   Many think it superior.  

The old custom of 'handfasting' was recognised in Scots Law as 'Marriage by Declaration' - the man and woman stating publicly they were man and wife constituted a legal marriage.   The couple agreed to live together -  the 'ceremony' was an ancient one - they clasped hands frequently  through a hole in a monolith.   (Origin of handfasting)   This arrangement would be made for a year - if, in the interim the woman became pregnant, a formal marriage was obligatory.   However, if there was no pregnancy, nor sign of pregnancy, after one year of living together, they could agree to part.   This left no stain on the woman's virtue.

Certainly in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, the entire community took part in the celebrations, which frequently lasted up to a week.   Now, three day long celebrations are not unusual.

tsaria

[ChristineM]

Some food for thought.   I've just found the following - a sonnet written by Mary to Bothwell:

'For him I have spurned my honour,
 and disdained
The only way true happiness is gained.
For him, I've gambled conscience,
 rank and right!
For him, all friends and family I've fled,
And all respectability I've shed
In short, with you alone will I unite.'

tsaria

[Martyn]

I aplogise for this obtuse question Tsaria, but what is your take on this verse?

[helenazar]

I aplogise for this obtuse question Tsaria, but what is your take on this verse?

Yes, I would like to know what you think of it too, Tsaria....

[ChristineM]

Martyn and Helen

The question is - did she really write this or was this another piece of poison created to stain her reputation by Knox or some of his Calvinist cronies?

If we assume she wrote it, the only conclusion I can  be come to is that she really was besotted by James Hepburn, and he, realising this, took the opportunity and 'abducted' her.   Thrilled by the experience of being swept off her feet,  their union was consensual.

The poem is 'attributed to Mary and it does read like her style, but I think it was a 'set up'.  

Alternatively, perhaps she really did lose her head over Bothwell.

What do you think?

[ChristineM]

Dear Bluetoria

Sorry for my tardiness in replying to your question - I promise it is not because I am in influenced by the fact that you live five minutes from Lord Darnley's former home.

As you probably know, Mary was a 22 year old widow with no close family when she was presented with Lord Darnley as a suitor.   She recalled her first encounter with him - he was the 'lustiest and best proprotionit lang man'.   She was ripe for love and didn't look beyond his 'manly charms' to see the 18 year old, selfish, debauched, womaniser he already was.

Soon she realised her mistake and distanced him.    The vain, vapid young man, King Henry, as he had become accustomed to signing himself, responded by gathering around him every disaffected crony he could find who bore grudges against his wife, the 'Catholic' Queen.

On the night Darnley and his accomplices broke into the Queen's supper and murdered Riccio, her Italian secretary, not just before her eyes - the terrified man clung to her skirts for protection - he died, pleading with her 'sauvez ma vie, madame sauvez ma vie'.   In order to, falsely, fully implicate him, Darnley's blood-covered dagger was found at the scene.  

Mary believed that night, and, for the rest of her life, that her husband, Lord Darnley had planned that they murder her too.

Later, when Henry Darnley was murdered, she neither knew of nor was involved in the plot.   She was aghast when she was wakened in the middle of the night and told of his death.   Shocked, she immediately ordered the Court into mourning.  A show trial was was instituted which resulted in James Bothwell, the accused, being acquitted.

In conclusion, I do not think Mary was involved in the murder of her husband.   Naturally she was shocked to learn he was dead, but I cannot imagine she was terribly sorry to be rid of him.

tsaria

(makes the antics of the British Royal Family look tame)
 

[bluetoria]

Thank you, Tsaria,
I don't know enough about him although I visit his birthplace several times a week! He does come over as an arrogant & most unpleasant man but I always hoped Mary had nothing to do with his murder. She, from the small amount I know about her, seems very much the 'victim' in the whole case. I remember reading somewhere about him treating her badly when she was pregnant & saying something humiliating to suggest she would have other children if she miscarried that baby.
( ;)Very few people who live near Temple Newsam are like that nowadays!!  "How different from the home life of our own dear Queen!")
Thank you! How lovely to be so well informed as you are. I shall go again to Temple Newsam tomorrow & find out a bit more in order to begin to reach your level of knowledge!  

[helenazar]

Martyn and Helen

The question is - did she really write this or was this another piece of poison created to stain her reputation by Knox or some of his Calvinist cronies?

If we assume she wrote it, the only conclusion I can  be come to is that she really was besotted by James Hepburn, and he, realising this, took the opportunity and 'abducted' her.   Thrilled by the experience of being swept off her feet,  their union was consensual.

The poem is 'attributed to Mary and it does read like her style, but I think it was a 'set up'.  

Alternatively, perhaps she really did lose her head over Bothwell.

What do you think?

 

Thank you, Tsaria. This poem, IMHO, does not present Mary Stuart in a very favorable light as a ruler (or even as a woman for that matter). If she did indeed write it, I have to go with my initial impression of her character, which was that she put her personal feelings and impulses before her responsibilites as a ruler and that she had very bad sense of judgement (especially compared to her cousin Elizabeth I).  
If, on the other hand she did not write it and it was falsely attributed to her, I can see why her enemies would want to do that, as this poem paints an unflattering 'portrait' of her character as queen. This is only my opinion of course.

[Martyn]

Tsaria, do you think that there is conclusive proof to show that Mary was not implicated in his death?  Was it not Elizabeth who put him in the path of the Scots queen anyway?

[helenazar]

 Was it not Elizabeth who put him in the path of the Scots queen anyway?

Elizabeth initially wanted Mary to marry Robert Dudley, her own favorite, in order to gain control of what's going on in Scotland. I don't know how serious Elizabeth was about that, but she did send an offer of this in writing to Mary. Mary pretty much just laughed at it. Then Darnley ended up in Scotland, but I am not so sure it was with the intent of marrying Mary. I don't remember for sure, but I think Elizabeth was not really too happy with this union... So I am not so sure that Elizabeth put Darnley in Mary's path deliberately...

[bluetoria]

Tsaria, how on earth would Elizabeth have coped with her favourite being married to a woman she already viewed as her rival in looks & charm?

[helenazar]

Tsaria, how on earth would Elizabeth have coped with her favourite being married to a woman she already viewed as her rival in looks & charm?

I don't know if she was really serious about that offer, but if she was and from what we know of Elizabeth, she would have coped pretty well if this meant political benefit to England and her reign (unlike Mary who probably wouldn't have been able to pull anything like this off, judging from what we know of her) .