Author Topic: Relation to Alix  (Read 39114 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline lanksareit

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 8
  • I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
    • View Profile
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2005, 05:09:30 PM »
Mary, Queen of Scots royal motto was "my ending is my beginning".

She was Queen of Scotland by birth, Queen of France by marriage, and Queen of England by right, or so legend goes.

She was married and widowed TWICE before she was 21.

The British Library records over 400 books written about Mary, Queen of Scots, more than anyone else. Fabulous!

I also read her grandmother was also her mother-in-law. How does that work out?


(PS: HM Queen Elizabeth II right to the British throne is solely due to Mary and not her so-called 'forebear' Elizabeth I. Elizaberth I died a virgin queen and has no ancestors.)


Offline Martyn

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7022
  • Martyn's Chips
    • View Profile
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2005, 04:40:05 AM »
From Antonia Fraser's'mary Queen of Scots'...

'Once more, however, the repose of the queen of Scots was destined to be disturbed.  In 1867 a search was instituted by Dean Stanley within the royal tombs of Westminster Abbey for the body of James I, whose position was unrecorded.  It was eventually discovered in the tomb of Henry VII, the first Tudor and the first Stuart monarch of England lying appropriately together with Elizabeth of York, the woman who had made the foundation of both dynasties possible.  But in the course of the search, among the places it was thought he might have appropriately chosen for his own sepulchre was the tomb of his mother.  An entry was made below the monument to Mary, and at the foot of an ample flight of steps marked WAY was found a large vault of brick, twelve feet long, six feet high and seven feet wide.  A startling and harrowing sight greeted the gaze of the Victorian searchers: the queen of Scots was far from lying alone in her tomb.  A vast pile of lead coffins rose upwards from the floor, some of them obviously of children, some so small as to be of mere babies, all heaped together in confusion, amid urns of many different shapes, which were scattered all through the vault.

It was discoverd that Mary shared her catacomb with numbers of her descendants, including her grandson Henry, Prince of Wales, who died before his prime, her granddaughter Elizabeth of Bohemia, the Winter Queen, and her great-grandson Prince Rupert of the Rhine, amongst the most romantic of all the offshoots of the Stuart dynasty.  Most poignant of all were the endless tiny coffins of the royal children who had died in infancy: here were found the the first ten children of James II, and one James Darnley, described as his natural son, as well as the eighteen pathetic babies born dead to Queen Anne, and her sole child to survive infancy, the young Duke of Gloucester.'

'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

Offline Martyn

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7022
  • Martyn's Chips
    • View Profile
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2005, 04:59:24 AM »
'Finally the coffin of the queen of Scots herself was found, against the north wall of the vault, lying below that of Arbella Stuart, that ill-fated scion of the royal house who had been the child-companion of Mary's captivity.  The coffin itself was of remarkable size, and it was easy to see why it had been too heavy to carry in procession at Peterborough Cathedral at the first burial.  But so securely had the royal body been wrapped in lead at the orders of the English government on the afternoon of the execution, that the casing had not given way in the slightest, even after nearly 300 years.  The searchers felt profoundly moved even by this inanimate spectacle.  No attempt was made to open it now. 'The presence of the fatal coffin which had received the headless corpse at Fotheringay,' wrote Dean Stanley, 'was sufficiently affecting without endeavouring to penetrate further into its mournful contents.'  The vault was thus reverently tidied, the urns rearranged, and a list was made of the contents.  But the queen's own coffin was left untouched, and the little children who surrounded her were not removed.

Meanwhile in the opposite chapel, underneath the monument to Queen Elizabeth I also raised by James, were found together in one grave the two daughters of Henry VIII, Mary Tudor and Elizabeth.  Barren in life, they had been left to lie alone together in death.  Mary, however lies amid her Stuart posterity, her face locked in the marble of repose on the monument above, and her hands clasped in prayer, her body in the vault below which harbours so many of her descendants.  She who never reigned in England, who was born a queen of Scotland, and who died at the orders of an English queen, lies now in Westminster Abbey where every sovereign of Britain since her death has been crowned: from her every sovereign of Britain since her death has been directly descended, down to the present queen, who is in the thirteenth generation.  As Mary herself embroidered so long ago at Sheffield on the royal cloth of state which was destined to hang over the head of a captive queen: In my end is my Beginning.'
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2005, 06:39:13 AM »
Quote
 HM Queen Elizabeth II right to the British throne is solely due to Mary...


All British monarchs since the Tudors owe their right to the throne to Mary!

Offline jackie3

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 174
  • "...such pig and filth!" - GD Anastasia N.
    • View Profile
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2005, 03:34:37 PM »
If I remember rightly most of the crowned (and formely crowned)  heads of Europe and many nobles and commonfolk (nowadays) are descended from Mary as well. I wonder if the childless Elizabeth I could have forseen such an event since she knew Mary's son James would succeed her. In the end Mary did have the last laugh on her cousin who condemned her.

Offline Helen_Azar

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7472
  • Coming up Fall 2015: Tatiana's diaries and letters
    • View Profile
    • War-time diaries of Grand Duchess Olga Nikolaevna Romanov
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2005, 05:48:13 PM »
Quote
If I remember rightly most of the crowned (and formely crowned)  heads of Europe and many nobles and commonfolk (nowadays) are descended from Mary as well.  


Yes! Through Victoria, who was also Mary's descendant...

a
Quote
I wonder if the childless Elizabeth I could have forseen such an event since she knew Mary's son James would succeed her. In the end Mary did have the last laugh on her cousin who condemned her.



Well, if we are going to get technical, then all aforementioned people descended from Henry Tudor,  Elizabeth's grandfather and Mary's great grandfather, or even Jasper Tudor (I think this was Henry's grandfather?). It's not really so much about the last laugh or a bigger achievement than Elizabeth's, as  technically all Mary did was give birth to one male child, which was a kind of an "accidental" event, not even something she could have controlled specifically, and the rest was a series of deliberate or "semi-accidental" events which led to the current descendant situation...  But it could have conceivably gone a different way too...  ;) :)

cantacuzene

  • Guest
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2005, 04:45:35 AM »
Moreover. All, all of them, included anne Boleyn, descended from Alfred the Great, Tudors and Stuarts.and all of them can ascend to Charlemagne trough norman ways , Plantagenets and Warenne. They descend all too from Pelayo! the first king of Asturias, for the Lancaster-trastamara connections.

       Direct male line Tudor extinguished, but not female.So that Stuarts continued having in their veins a portion blood Tudor and most of actual royals have their Tudor drop. So had Alix de Hesse and so have Elizabeth II and Juan carlos I of Spain

        I am quite ignorant in ADN advances, but I wonder
humbly this: It would be possible to find a common chromosome between Henry VIII and Prince Charles of Wales, for example? Would it be possible (I mean for the time) of course if we pass over potencial infidelities. What would reveal the analysis of a Henri VIII bone compared whirh a blood drope of Charles? I tried to start studying ADN for beginners :-/ but it's too much!!
So that i couldn't have satisfactory answer to questions like this. Technical sites are too diversified and touch legal aspects or archaeological , but there is very very few apply to genealogy concrete aspects

Offline trentk80

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 209
    • View Profile
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2005, 12:45:25 PM »
Quote

Well, if we are going to get technical, then all aforementioned people descended from Henry Tudor,  Elizabeth's grandfather and Mary's great grandfather, or even Jasper Tudor (I think this was Henry's grandfather?). It's not really so much about the last laugh or a bigger achievement than Elizabeth's, as  technically all Mary did was give birth to one male child, which was a kind of an "accidental" event, not even something she could have controlled specifically, and the rest was a series of deliberate or "semi-accidental" events which led to the current descendant situation...  But it could have conceivably gone a different way too...  ;) :)


It's not a matter of who had the bigger achievement -I think both had their own merits- but it's ironic that Elizabeth condemned Mary to death and today Mary has a lot of descendants and Elizabeth has none.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by trentk80 »
Ladran los perros a la Luna, y ella con majestuoso desprecio prosigue el curso de su viaje.

Offline Kimberly

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 3143
  • Loyaulte me lie
    • View Profile
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2005, 01:48:42 PM »
Ianksareit wrote:" also read her grandmother was also her mother-in-law. How does that work out?
 
Well, Mary's father was James V and his mother was Margaret Tudor. Margaret Tudor was therefore Mary's grandmother. i don't get the Mother in law bit though. Mary's second husband was Henry Darnley. His mother was Lady Margaret Douglas (and therefore Mary's mother-in-law). Margaret's mother was Margaret Tudor( mary's granny). There is the link as far as I can work it, hope this helps ;)
Member of the Richard III Society

Offline ilyala

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2063
  • il y a
    • View Profile
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2005, 04:58:18 AM »
so many things to reply to... i don't know where to start...


jasper tudor is not an ancestor of any royal because he didn't have any children. his older brother, edmund, was the father of english king henry 7th and that's where it all starts actually :)...

mary stuart's mother in law (the second one, mother of her second husband, henry darnley) was the daughter of her grandmother from her second marriage, she was basically mary's father's half sister :)... so she and her husband were cousins :).

james 6th of scotland was mary's son with darnley and he became james 1st of england when elizabeth died.

i love these genealogy stuff... i used to spend hours on genealogy sites :D
'loving might be a mistake, but it's worth making'
ilya


Offline imperial angel

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4608
    • View Profile
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2007, 03:09:32 PM »
Dear Martyn

My Russian isn't great - it would have taken me around eighteen years, seven months and three and a half weeks to read, so I relied on a friend reading it aloud in translation - a real luxury... apart from the fact that, with the exception of the title, it was rather superficial.

A paperback, I think it must have been around 1996 when I purchased it in St Petersburg.   It now resides in Gibraltar with the Russian friend who skimmed a translation.

Now that I have remembered, and thought, about it again, I realize perhaps it was an opportunity lost.   The similarities and contrasts between these three ladies and their fates are worthy of serious study.

tsaria

Indeed. Even reading the title of that book made me want to read it. It's unfortunate it was superficial. I think someone should do a better job in English of writing such a book. Alexandra identified with Marie Antoinette, and there is much there to discuss. In addition, Mary, Queen of Scots blood ran in the veins of Alexandra, and the Radzinsky bio of Nicholas II does a good job talking about that. I am curious, though does anyone know if Marie Antoinette and Mary, Queen of Scots were related at all? I think that would be an interesting link, but I can't see that she would be descended from her, except perhaps through that sister of Charles II, who married a French royal, and had two daughters, I think. But, that is unlikely. I am no expert on genealogy of MA, so would be happy if someone could help me out.

Offline lori_c

  • Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 687
    • View Profile
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2007, 03:19:39 PM »
Dear Martyn

My Russian isn't great - it would have taken me around eighteen years, seven months and three and a half weeks to read, so I relied on a friend reading it aloud in translation - a real luxury... apart from the fact that, with the exception of the title, it was rather superficial.

A paperback, I think it must have been around 1996 when I purchased it in St Petersburg.   It now resides in Gibraltar with the Russian friend who skimmed a translation.

Now that I have remembered, and thought, about it again, I realize perhaps it was an opportunity lost.   The similarities and contrasts between these three ladies and their fates are worthy of serious study.

tsaria

Indeed. Even reading the title of that book made me want to read it. It's unfortunate it was superficial. I think someone should do a better job in English of writing such a book. Alexandra identified with Marie Antoinette, and there is much there to discuss. In addition, Mary, Queen of Scots blood ran in the veins of Alexandra, and the Radzinsky bio of Nicholas II does a good job talking about that. I am curious, though does anyone know if Marie Antoinette and Mary, Queen of Scots were related at all? I think that would be an interesting link, but I can't see that she would be descended from her, except perhaps through that sister of Charles II, who married a French royal, and had two daughters, I think. But, that is unlikely. I am no expert on genealogy of MA, so would be happy if someone could help me out.

Imperial Angel

The Last Tsar does mention the "dark blood of Mary Stuart stirring" in AF veins.  I think I understand the geneology of this but how does these two women relate to Charlemagne?  i know i read that.  And I know you are pretty well versed in Mary Stuart.  Can you help?

Lori

Offline bell_the_cat

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1678
  • I am he, who will bell the cat
    • View Profile
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2007, 04:59:55 PM »
Mary Queen of Scots
l
James VI /1
l
Elisabeth Queen of Bohemia
l
Karl Ludwig, Elector Palatine
l
Elisabeth Charlotte, Duchess of Orleans (Lieslotte!)
l
Elisabeth Charlotte Duchess of Lorraine
l
Franz Stefan, Holy Roman Emperor
l
Marie Antoinette



Never put off until tomorrow what you can put off until the day after tomorrow. (Mark Twain)

Offline imperial angel

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 4608
    • View Profile
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2007, 05:05:17 PM »
Thanks! It is very interesting how related they were and intertwined. Was Elisabeth-Charlotte the grand daughter of Elisabeth, Queen of Bohemia? It seems so from your genealogy. Could you post more on that?

Offline Prince_Lieven

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6570
  • To Be Useful In All That I Do
    • View Profile
    • Edward III's Descendants
Re: Relation to Alix
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2007, 05:08:41 PM »
She was, as is clear from Bell's post. Liselotte was the daughter of Charles Louis, the Winter Queen's eldest surviving son.
"How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?"
-Sherlock Holmes

"Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."