Re: Alexandra and her Health Part 2

[Tsarina_Liz]

Mr. Kendrick,
  I'm having trouble locating the specific article.  Could you please provide a complete citation (author, title, volume, etc.) so I can better find it.  Thanks,
 - Liz

Please see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15307116&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum
or:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/109593773/ABSTRACT

jk

While I'm not a big fan of authors pushing their own work (man does it irk my when my profs do that), the links are helpful.  Thanks! 

Also, debunking the belief of hemophilia does not have anything to do with Rasputin IMO.  The man can be credibly debunked independently of the Tsarevich since, had the Tsarevich been healthy, there is still a chance Rasputin would have been introduced to the IF given Alexandra's timely fascination with the occult and religious mysticism (by timely, I am refering to the era's obsession with the spiritual world and mysticism). 

Speaking of Rasputin, his involvement with Alexandra could have greatly contributed to her declining help.  He, and I hate to use this phrase, drove her into hysterics and intense religious fits.  With her increasing spirituality, she took more interest in strictly observing religious fasts and food rules.  Also, a social life is as important to a person's health as food and shelter.  Her isolation, due partly to the odious Rasputin, could have put undo strain on her mental state.  Additionally, her increasingly morose and intense outlook on life (encouraged by her religous views IMO) would have made her miserable. 

[Nadezhda_Edvardova]

A few observations:

1. It's always a risky proposition, diagnosing someone who is dead.

2. Alexei was diagnosed with hemophilia during his lifetime.  Perhaps modern diagnostic techniques would offer a different answer, but I doubt it. (My doubt, BTW, doesn't count for much.  I'm an economic historian, not even a nurse!)

3. The unpublished paper which says no gene for porphyria was found in Alexandra's DNA is unpublished, and therefore not really conclusive among professionals.  It represents just one person's work.  If he is correct, eventually he will be vindicated.  Until then, unpublished works just don't have the gravitas published ones do.  (In this modern age, publication is so easy that even published works must be taken with some amount of salt.)

4.  Elsewhere, I've said I think Alexandra had panic disorder.  I stick to that.  I'm also beginning to wonder if she blew her real ailments out of proportion as an attention-getting device.  Certainly the imperial family revolved around her, making her happy, calming her down....  Elsewhere I've read that in response to official complaints against Rasputin, Nicholas said something like of "better ten Rasputins than one hysterical empress..."

Pax, N.

[helenazar]

Elsewhere, I've said I think Alexandra had panic disorder. 

I agree, I believe that this is what she had, which escalated from an anxiety disorder. And it would have had nothing to do with any porphyria or hemophilia genes....

[Tsarina_Liz]

4.  Elsewhere, I've said I think Alexandra had panic disorder.  I stick to that.  I'm also beginning to wonder if she blew her real ailments out of proportion as an attention-getting device.  Certainly the imperial family revolved around her, making her happy, calming her down....  Elsewhere I've read that in response to official complaints against Rasputin, Nicholas said something like of "better ten Rasputins than one hysterical empress..."

Pax, N.

Well put!  The tantrums and bouts of hysteria were certainly aimed at getting attention in my opinion, she enjoyed the fuss surrounding her.  Alexandra did her best to live up to the stereotype of the swooining helpless woman held captive by her hysterical femaly mind and body, a stereotype very popular in the Victorian Era.  She thrived as a martyr, an image partly fed to her by her ultra-religious friends.  This isn't to say all the hysteria and illness wasn't unwarranted, her sciatica was real and probable her exhaustion, but other than that her problems seem psychological and she often worked herself up into a frenzy and physical pain (the palpatations, the flushing, etc.)  The quote by Nicholas reflects, in my interpretation, her use of hysterics and fits to get her way.  For a woman who strove to appear composed and quiet, she was remarkably immature in her dealings with her husband and family.  She was a nagging shrew who I can easily picture faking a woozy spell to induce Nicholas' guilt.     

[Nadezhda_Edvardova]

Liz, I've never seen Alexandra as using her illness as a way of getting attention.  At least, not consciously.  I was seeing the family as codependent and enabling to Alexandra.  Rather the same way that families treat their alcoholic members. 

(And before anyone gets angry, I did not call Alexandra an alcoholic.  There's no evidence she was and there is evidence of her abstemiousness.)

Pax et bonum

Nadezhda

[Grace]

Well, I don't know whether I would consider Alexandra used her ailments, real or imagined, to get attention but I think she used them to avoid people and events in her life she felt unable to cope with -- and unfortunately, this was quite frequent.

[Romanov_fan]

The stress she was under might have caused some of her illnesses, certainly. And that is understandable, as she was under much stress, although she perhaps took things too hard. But I don't think she ever used her illnesses intentionally to get attention or whatever. Her husband would give her attention anyway; he wasn't that strong willed. And her family always paid attention. As well, she didn't want public attention, so why fake illness, or use it, if that's what you mean? I think she may have at times used it to avoid things, which is rather human, especially when she used it to avoid social gatherings. But she got so shy at social gatherings that pretty soon, the things she was going through psyochologically there, would be physical.

[Raegan]

I have never come across one shred of evidence to even begin to suggest that Alexandra faked her illnesses to get Nicholas' attention.

[Alixz]

I have often wondered why Alexis seemed to be able to "heal" after the strongest attacks.  And I have said before the Rasputin did not heal Alexis, Alexis healed Alexis.  That is why he survived so well and so long after Rasputin's death.

As to Alix being prone to illness because she carried the hemophilia gene, has that been shown in any other mother whom we CAN prove carried the gene?  Suzanne Masse for example?

[Romanov_fan]

I don't think the hemophilia gene had anything to with any illnesses of hers, at all. I think as well that Raegan has got it right; there is simply no evidence she ever faked illness, however much those may have been psychological in orgin.

[Tsarina_Liz]

I don't think the hemophilia gene had anything to with any illnesses of hers, at all. I think as well that Raegan has got it right; there is simply no evidence she ever faked illness, however much those may have been psychological in orgin.

I never meant to imply she faked them, they were certainly real enough to her (as letters from Botkin can attest, the heart problems etc. were mental and not physical in origin).  But she did use them to her advantage.  The quote about the hysterical Alexandra is a good example as I also brought up her tendency to become hysterical when it came to getting her way and she could be a stubborn, nagging woman (read her letters and how harshly she criticized Nicholas, albeit in sugar coated words, or about her imploring letters to poor Olga to be more proper etc.)  Her headaches kept her laid up in the mauve budoir for days at a time, she was confined to a wheel chair for most of the last years of her life (sure, sciatica played a part), demanded attendance of her daughters and the cancellation of events.  She avoided public appearances, overdosed on drugs (which I think would have killed her in the long run) and clung to smelling salts, metaphorically (she is very much like Aunt Pitty Pat in "Gone With the Wind").  But in an instant could be boisterous and determined (see her nursing work or the accounts of her bounding down the stairs to meet Nicholas).  Her illnesses had a tendency to come and go.  Those are the signs of a woman playing her illness for all its worth in my opinion.  This is not to say she was completely healthy, besides obvious psychological problems there was the sciatica and probably aches and pains due to bearing four children and maybe even complications from carrying hemophilia, nor is it to say she was not a loving, devoted woman.  She was a complicated individual and like everyone, she appears to have had her dark side.   

[Raegan]

I never meant to imply she faked them, they were certainly real enough to her (as letters from Botkin can attest, the heart problems etc. were mental and not physical in origin).  But she did use them to her advantage. 

Wait a minute. Now you're saying that you never "meant to imply" she faked them, but you still claim she "used them to her advantage." Now, if she used them to her advantage, wouldn't that be a person faking their illness? And you could have fooled me with not implying that she faked them when you stated the quote below:

The tantrums and bouts of hysteria were certainly aimed at getting attention in my opinion, she enjoyed the fuss surrounding her.

This does indeed sound like you are implying that she faked her illnesses.

Her headaches kept her laid up in the mauve budoir for days at a time, she was confined to a wheel chair for most of the last years of her life (sure, sciatica played a part), demanded attendance of her daughters and the cancellation of events.

Pierre Gilliard wrote in Thirteen Years At the Russian Court that it was the Grand Duchesses who came up with the idea of attending to their mother when she needed it, not Alexandra herself. It was the daughters who came to their mother's aid on their own initiative. I would guess they did this out of love for their mother.

In She avoided public appearances, overdosed on drugs (which I think would have killed her in the long run) and clung to smelling salts, metaphorically (she is very much like Aunt Pitty Pat in "Gone With the Wind").

When did she overdose on drugs?  

But in an instant could be boisterous and determined (see her nursing work or the accounts of her bounding down the stairs to meet Nicholas).

 

Alexandra wasn't always sick.

Those are the signs of a woman playing her illness for all its worth in my opinion.

So you ARE still implying that she faked her illnesses. 

This is not to say she was completely healthy, besides obvious psychological problems there was the sciatica and probably aches and pains due to bearing four children

She had five children.

[Helen]

Well said, Raegan!!

As regards Liz's post:

The quote about the hysterical Alexandra is a good example as I also brought up her tendency to become hysterical when it came to getting her way and she could be a stubborn, nagging woman (read her letters and how harshly she criticized Nicholas, albeit in sugar coated words, or about her imploring letters to poor Olga to be more proper etc.)

Alix was stubborn and she knew she was.

Her wartime letters to Nicholas were written in very exceptional circumstances. It would be unfair and far too simplistic to take these letters to accuse Alix of being "a nagging woman" while conveniently forgetting that hundreds of other letters to Nicholas, friends and relatives show her in an entirely different light.

I never meant to imply she faked them, they were certainly real enough to her (as letters from Botkin can attest, the heart problems etc. were mental and not physical in origin).  But she did use them to her advantage. ... Her headaches kept her laid up in the mauve budoir for days at a time, she was confined to a wheel chair for most of the last years of her life (sure, sciatica played a part), demanded attendance of her daughters and the cancellation of events.  She avoided public appearances ....  But in an instant could be boisterous and determined (see her nursing work or the accounts of her bounding down the stairs to meet Nicholas).  Her illnesses had a tendency to come and go.  Those are the signs of a woman playing her illness for all its worth in my opinion....

Alix was fully aware of the fact that her heart problem and some of her other health problems were psychosomatic and a result of the constant stress she was under. She stated this in a letter to Margarethe Pfuhlstein-von Fabrice in December 1913. She may not have been able to attend stressful public events on bad days - which, according to her brother, "led to accusations of weakness and evil intent" - but she did manage to attend them "with great force of will, suffering severe pains" on better days. Attending public events "suffering severe pains" is not really consistent with the behaviour one would expect of someone using her ailments to her advantage.

Since her health problems were partly stress-related, it was only natural that they aggravated when she was faced with duties that were stressful to her, like public appearances, and that she could do more when it came to duties that did not give her that type of stress, such as her work at the hospital.

... The quote about the hysterical Alexandra is a good example as I also brought up her tendency to become hysterical when it came to getting her way ...

I think this quote is actually not such a good example. We don't know the exact state of mind this remark was made in, but I think it unlikely that Nicholas meant to suggest that Alix was going from one fit of hysteria to another. I don't think there is sufficient reliable evidence that she was. Nicholas's remark was possibly not so much different from the remarks billions of men have made about their wives getting over-emotional in discussions. No sensible person would interpret these remarks as proof of hysteria.

The discussions Nicholas and Alexandra had about Rasputin inevitably were discussions that were emotionally charged. After all, the real issue was not whether they would invite some peasant for tea, but how to cope with their son's health problems. All the emotions and frustrations concerning Alexei's health that Alix went through, Nicholas went through too. They were two people trying to cope as best as possible  with the deepest fears, worries and feelings of powerlessness parents can go through. Both of them must have felt deeply frustrated, not only  because there was no cure for their son, but also because they were unable to take away their beloved partner's sorrow, fears and worries on this point. It's very well possible that, when discussing Alexei's health and Rasputin's role, Alix got more emotional than Nicholas could handle considering his own fears and worries, bottled up for years. To me, his remark is not proof that Alix was a hysteric; it rather shows me the depth of their sorrows, and I feel compassion for both of them.

[Tsarina_Liz]

I never meant to imply she faked them, they were certainly real enough to her (as letters from Botkin can attest, the heart problems etc. were mental and not physical in origin).  But she did use them to her advantage.

Wait a minute. Now you're saying that you never "meant to imply" she faked them, but you still claim she "used them to her advantage." Now, if she used them to her advantage, wouldn't that be a person faking their illness? And you could have fooled me with not implying that she faked them when you stated the quote below:

The tantrums and bouts of hysteria were certainly aimed at getting attention in my opinion, she enjoyed the fuss surrounding her.

This does indeed sound like you are implying that she faked her illnesses.

Her headaches kept her laid up in the mauve budoir for days at a time, she was confined to a wheel chair for most of the last years of her life (sure, sciatica played a part), demanded attendance of her daughters and the cancellation of events.

Pierre Gilliard wrote in Thirteen Years At the Russian Court that it was the Grand Duchesses who came up with the idea of attending to their mother when she needed it, not Alexandra herself. It was the daughters who came to their mother's aid on their own initiative. I would guess they did this out of love for their mother.

In She avoided public appearances, overdosed on drugs (which I think would have killed her in the long run) and clung to smelling salts, metaphorically (she is very much like Aunt Pitty Pat in "Gone With the Wind").

When did she overdose on drugs?   

But in an instant could be boisterous and determined (see her nursing work or the accounts of her bounding down the stairs to meet Nicholas).

 

Alexandra wasn't always sick.

Those are the signs of a woman playing her illness for all its worth in my opinion.

So you ARE still implying that she faked her illnesses. 

This is not to say she was completely healthy, besides obvious psychological problems there was the sciatica and probably aches and pains due to bearing four children

She had five children.

Many of Alexandra's physical illnesses were not real.  They were largely physical manifestations of psychological problems (probably including the need for attention) and as such were real enough to her but not technically real physical illnesses.  Because they had no physical origin, a simpler term for them would be "faking" but, like I said, they were real enough to her.  So they existed and she took advantage of them.  Maybe even exaggerated occasionally.  She certainly was not sick all the time, but it would be fair to say she was "ill" a significant proportion of the time. 

As her "illnesses" progressed Alexandra increasingly used narcotics to control the symptoms, I don't have direct access to my books right now, but I think she was taking (excessive amounts of) some sort of narcotic and also mercury (mercury chloride?) for her heart (someone who can get to books, please feel free to write the specifics).  She was experiencing "symptoms" so often, including insomnia, she was taking the drugs on a regular basis meaning they built up in her system to the point she had to essentially overdose to obtain the desired effect.  Her body had built up a resistance.  An autopsy on her body probably would have been very interesting. 

Alexandra required attendance by her daughters and did not like to be alone. The girls simply devised a system of serving on a rotating basis.  Yes, they loved her and she loved them but that does not mean she did not make demands of them.  Some authors discuss, albeit briefly, the relationship between Alexandra and her daughters - especially Olga and mentions the strain that sometimes occured. 

My bad about the 4 children mistake.  Inexcusable brain spasm.     

As for Alexandra's letters, letters before and after the war exhibit the same nagging albeit to a lesser degree.  Obviously the stress of war hyperactivated her.  No matter how coy and loving the words, they are still demanding.  Helen, where can I find the letter in which Alexandra admits her illnesses are phantoms?

Alexandra felt it necessary to condition her attendance of a public celebration "with great force of will, suffering severe pains."  Why would she, other than to gain attention and sympathy for her martyr like bravery, have to mention this?  Her entire family would have known about her aches and pains, mentioning them was pointless. 

What I find interesting is that she worked herself into fits of pain over walking past a crowd but performed seamlessly when faced with blood and gore and trapped in small operating rooms most people would consider a hell.  It's almost like an exaggerated Munchhausen's Syndrome.  She needed others to be sick for her to be healthy and to come to the rescue.       

[Alixz]

I have always wondered about her ability to work in the hospital as well.  How was it that she could handle that so well?

And I am still wondering what it was that caused her to begin to be so cruel to Nicholas in her letters. What caused the tirades about his weak will?  He was always that way.