Re: Alexandra and her Health Part 2

[Janet Ashton]

Well, it was, but it was new and she didn't know Freud.

But then she liked to believe in false prophets and soothsayers so she probably wouldn't have been interested in Freud anyway.

Oh yes, Freud, the man who wrote about penis envy and the Oedipus complex. Such an uncontroversial figure.

Indeed, it was the era of Freud and Jung, of Conan Doyle and Alexandra David-Neel; of Madame Blavatsky and the Golden Dawn; of Rudolf Steiner and W. B Yeats; of Francis Younghusband and the theosophical Society.....why would anyone be taken in by a "false prophet" when it was all so obvious who was the right and sane person to follow?

[Janet Ashton]

Even though 'rest' was very much in vogue in Alexandra's day, fresh air was also very much the thing, at least in Britain, so sitting outside in the fresh air was frequently prescribed, along with going away to milder climates where one could sit outside in  winter.

[post deleted]. Can't be arguing with anyone over this and going round and round; I've said what I had to say before on this topic....Just wish the threads were a little more open to different possibilities and not so focussed on how everything was all in her mind and what a saint Nicholas was to put up withi t....:-(

[LisaDavidson]

Discussions - online and otherwise - can be prone to "groupthink" where people go around agreeing with one another and then there is no real discussion, just the groupthinik. This happened several times to Bob and I in the days before the Forum, when we tried doing "chats" - people would start agreeing with one person and the discussion lost interest for me. I don't know how many times I said - Muffy, I really don't care to listen to you if all you have to say is " I agree with so and so.

The ony things that have worked for me are starting a new (more focused) question/topic and/or inviting humanoids with actual opinions to join in.

[Ian (UK)]

   Getting back to Freud I don't believe he ever met the Tsaritsa, but they did meet in Carolly Ericksons "The Tsarina's Daughter", where he declares her to be as mad as a hatter. I would like to think if they had ever met, it would have been difficult to tell who was doing the psychoanalysing.
   In reality I think it would have gone something like this.

  The Tsaritsa -          "Tell me Mr Freud are you fond of greek tragedy, & do you like my BIG yacht. 


        Yes,...... Alix would have sorted him out.   

[Kalafrana]

On a slightly different tack, what was Alexandra's health like before her marriage? Much is made of the stress she was under as a result of being Empress, plus the physical affects of producing five alarmingly large babies in fairly quick succession.

I have an idea that she was never all that robust, and that she spent part of the famous trip to England in 1894 taking the waters at Harrogate and in a wheelchair.

Ann

[Janet Ashton]

Discussions - online and otherwise - can be prone to "groupthink" where people go around agreeing with one another and then there is no real discussion, just the groupthinik. This happened several times to Bob and I in the days before the Forum, when we tried doing "chats" - people would start agreeing with one person and the discussion lost interest for me.

Yes, very true; as I say, I do think the tone in relation to Alexandra has gone from one of almost alarming deference (back in the early days of the forum) to judgmental sarcasm about her "illnesses" and what she "should" have done instead.

It's interesting to see that Maria Feodorovna reached the point of emotional collapse after Biorki, and was widely believed to be under the care of a psychiatrist; Nicholas II was almost catatonic by 1917, and both the Kaiser and his wife were under such strain in their public lives that it put their marriage at risk for years at a time and drove their suite to distraction. It is all too easy to see Alexandra as abnormal in her reactions; but if there is some particular merit in Nicholas it lies in his recognition of the fact that perhaps it was the life he asked her to share which was responsible for her health, not least because of the repeated pregnancies in quest of a son who turned out to be physically delicate, but who, married to another man, she might not even have needed to give birth to, thereby sparing herself much emotional strain.

That's the way I see it anyway; any "hysterical woman; poor old patient hubby" talk always set me off...:-)

[Alixz]

Remember that the father determines the sex of the child.  Perhaps married to someone else, Alexandra would have have 4 sons and 1 daughter.

Perhaps some of the sons would have been healthy.

Who could ever know?

I guess that I just get tired of all the excuses that are made for Alexandra and her "illnesses".  I am the opposite of some other posters.
 
I suppose that she was just following the medical advice of the day, but to me, this granddaughter of Queen Victoria was a"weak" offspring.  I wonder if both the Prince of Wales and Victoria ever were glad that Alix turned down Prince Eddy.

As to Alexandra asking Freud what he thought about her "big Yacht" - I'll bet that would have gone right to penis envy.  No straightening him out at all, just verification that she truly wanted to be "wifey with the invisible trousers" as she herself said.

[Alixz]

Here is another thought about Alix and Prince Eddy.

Eddy asked Alix to marry him in 1889.  Had she done so within a year or so as was the custom.  She would have been his wife in 1892 when he died.

She would not have been available to marry Nicholas in 1894.

What do the Brits do with the widow of the son of the Prince of Wales who would be next in line to the throne?

As his widow, she might have already had her first child in the two years that they would have had together or maybe not, but as Eddy died and then George took his place as "next in line" I wonder if they would have pushed Alix on him as they did May of Tek?

It is correct to push a widow onto the heir presumptive as it was correct to push the former fiance?

Interesting "what if"!

[Kalafrana]

If Alexandra had married Eddy, there would have been just as strong a possibility of her producing a haemophiliac heir as there was when she married Nicholas.

There have been three widowed Princesses of Wales in all. The first was Joan of Kent, widow of the Black Prince, who became mother of the reigning king little more than a year after her husband's death. The second was Katharine of Aragon, who married Arthur, Prince of Wales, and then Henry VIII. The third was Augusta, widow of Frederick, Prince of Wales, who died in 1751 and was the father of George III.

Joan was already a widow when she married the Black Prince (she actually had quite an interesting marital history), and I think all her brothers-in-law were already married - will check.

Frederick and Augusta had no fewer than nine children, the last born posthumously.

Regards


Ann

[Margot]

Alixz pertaining to your interesting 'What if' about what to do with a widowed Alix, Duchess of Clarence! If in 1892 she had become widowed, she would have been forbidden to marry George, because as at the time the law prohibited marriages between a man and his deceased brother's wife (This law was repealed in 1921).  It would have been a very difficult position to have been in. I wonder if Henry VIII insisted on creating the law after the mess he caused over his marriage to Catherine of Aragon!?

Had Alix been childless, then she could have married again without many constraints, but had she had a child who would have then been second in line, her position would have been less than enviable. Possible British based second husbands would probably have baulked at the restrictions marriage to the mother of the future monarch entailed, unless they were already a member of the Royal Faminly. The only candidates I can think of who would probably have been seen as ideal 'step father' material for an heir during the early nineties due to their status, age and background would have been Christian Victor and Albert of Schleswig Holstein.

The alternative of a second marriage to a foreigner would also have probably appeared a near impossible idea to achieve at the time, unless said suitor was prepared to be thoroughly and thereafter constantly vetted and been prepared to move permanently to England for the duration of said step child's minority. In such a 'What if' situation a widowed Alix would have found herself so tied to the upbringing of a child and maintaining her prerogatives as a mother as to probably feel obliged to remain a widow at least until a child reached eighteen, and then she would have been more free in her choices once again.

[Janet Ashton]

I guess that I just get tired of all the excuses that are made for Alexandra and her "illnesses". 

Well, no-one can be in a position to makes "excuses" for Alexandra and "illnesses" because no-one here can know what was wrong with her. All they can do is theorise and discuss.

As to Alexandra asking Freud what he thought about her "big Yacht" - I'll bet that would have gone right to penis envy.  No straightening him out at all, just verification that she truly wanted to be "wifey with the invisible trousers" as she herself said.

:-D    Even without recourse to his own phallocentric lights, surely Freud was aware that the Yacht was Nicholas's? :-) And if he wanted an imperial couple to analyse through his particular sexualised world view, he had no need to go as far as petersburg; he need look no further afield than the Hofburg, where a lady sat stitched into her riding habit with long leather boots below. Her kids would have given him hours of fun too, though I doubt he could have got Franz Josef onto the couch.

[RealAnastasia]

I guess that I just get tired of all the excuses that are made for Alexandra and her "illnesses". 

Well, no-one can be in a position to makes "excuses" for Alexandra and "illnesses" because no-one here can know what was wrong with her. All they can do is theorise and discuss.

As to Alexandra asking Freud what he thought about her "big Yacht" - I'll bet that would have gone right to penis envy.  No straightening him out at all, just verification that she truly wanted to be "wifey with the invisible trousers" as she herself said.

:-D    Even without recourse to his own phallocentric lights, surely Freud was aware that the Yacht was Nicholas's? :-) And if he wanted an imperial couple to analyse through his particular sexualised world view, he had no need to go as far as petersburg; he need look no further afield than the Hofburg, where a lady sat stitched into her riding habit with long leather boots below. Her kids would have given him hours of fun too, though I doubt he could have got Franz Josef onto the couch.

I admire you,I'm such a coward! I had all this to say and wouldn't dare to do so. I was afarid of bieng banned. But you share totally my point of view and I'm happy you are more corageous than me to attack all those false prophetes of our time. Congrats to that. As I've said above, I had not the courage to write the things you did, for I was afraid of being banned. But now, that I've read your message I'm ready to support you entirely. If you are courageous I'm the duty to be so.

RealAnastasia.

[Alixz]

Janet - You are so right about the Hapsburgs.  :-)

[Kalafrana]

Franz Josef would have told Dr Freud that he was behind with his paperwork!

Actually, I think Franz Josef was a sensible down-to-earth chap who had no particular need for Freud. Admittedly, he married the wrong woman, but that is a different thing.

Ann

[RealAnastasia]

I agree, Kalafrana...We are guilt of some things that happens to us, but we don't choice the circumstances under we must live. Franz Josef was in love with Sisi, but they were too much differenty to go along together.

RealAnastasia.