Author Topic: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?  (Read 110525 times)

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Selencia

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Re: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?
« Reply #150 on: August 02, 2011, 02:27:04 AM »
Not only did Alexandra not ask for help but she didn't want it. She felt she knew what was good and right for everybody and those who disagreed were banished from her sight. Again with Marie Antoinette she honestly just seemed to be ignorant, a luxury Alexandra did not have. I also believe that Louis and Marie suffered more for the sins of their predecessors than Nicholas and Alexandra, they could have done "some" things to prevent their fate, but instead they continued on the path they thought was best.
As for a public trial, Louis and Marie were found guilty and executed accordingly. Nicholas and Alexandra never had the luxury, and I feel if they had been allowed that then perhaps the world wouldn't have gone so Romanov crazy. Also if there had been a public trial more likely than not, the daughters at least would have been allowed to live. But instead they were secretly and brutally murdered, burned, had acid pored on them, and dumped in an unmarked grave in the forest.

Alixz

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Re: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?
« Reply #151 on: August 02, 2011, 08:13:47 AM »
I believe, too, that the daughters would not have been executed is there was a public trial.

The revolutionary mob may have wanted to see Nicholas and Alix and probably even Alexei removed from any possibility of becoming a rallying point for monarchists, but I don't think they could have drummed up enough public support for the murder of the daughters.

I don't believe that the governments of the world or the Allies would have allowed that to happen had there been any notice that it was going to happen.

Offline Clemence

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Re: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?
« Reply #152 on: August 02, 2011, 02:54:48 PM »
but was there any serious danger that the GD Ella would become a rallying point for anyone? they killed her and in what a way!
'' It used to be all girls without clothes. Now it’s all clothes with no girls. Pity.''

Offline LauraO

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Re: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?
« Reply #153 on: August 02, 2011, 04:29:18 PM »
But at that point it was no longer a logical  thought out programme of rights and wrongs, there was such a deep hatred for the monarchy that it infiltrated any logic.
i totally agree that alix didn't want help, marie just diidn't understand.

Offline Clemence

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Re: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?
« Reply #154 on: August 03, 2011, 08:43:47 AM »
But at that point it was no longer a logical  thought out programme of rights and wrongs, there was such a deep hatred for the monarchy that it infiltrated any logic.
i totally agree that alix didn't want help, marie just diidn't understand.

I'm not sure if you mean that there was no programme, just deep hatred that killed ALL romanovs in russia. I always thought there was a programme and a very precise one, everything planned in a cold-blooded way, disinformation included.
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Offline LauraO

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Re: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?
« Reply #155 on: August 04, 2011, 02:02:18 PM »
No, i know that there was a plan  but i meant that a public trial wouldn't have necessarily made any difference, i was just trying to get to the point that the daughters weren't murdered imo because they were guilty, it was obvious that they weren't, so proving that in a trial wouldn't have mattered, they were murdered because they were hated for who they were, not because they did anything wrong.
sorry hope that's clearer now!

Alixz

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Re: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?
« Reply #156 on: August 04, 2011, 03:57:26 PM »
but was there any serious danger that the GD Ella would become a rallying point for anyone? they killed her and in what a way!

I think that Ella's relationship to Alix was not in her favor.  No matter how much she had worked among the poor and been praised for her loyalty, she was still a Grand Duchess and the sister of the hated Empress.

By the time Ella was arrested, all foreigners and all royalty in the country were at risk.

Offline LauraO

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Re: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?
« Reply #157 on: August 05, 2011, 02:53:43 AM »
but was there any serious danger that the GD Ella would become a rallying point for anyone? they killed her and in what a way!

I think that Ella's relationship to Alix was not in her favor.  No matter how much she had worked among the poor and been praised for her loyalty, she was still a Grand Duchess and the sister of the hated Empress.

By the time Ella was arrested, all foreigners and all royalty in the country were at risk.

this is the point i was trying to make , ella did endless amounts for the poor and was in no way guilty, but it wasn't what she did, it was just who she was...

Selencia

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Re: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?
« Reply #158 on: August 28, 2011, 01:12:16 AM »
Again the public did not condemn any of the Romanovs to death. That is why all of them were killed in secret. In the Bolsheviks minds all Romanovs were dangerous to their new regime and had to be eliminated. I have no idea how freakin Ella got into this mess but hey maybe they were just on a happy killing spree and decided to kill anyone with the last name Romanov. The Bolsheviks killed them in secret then lied about what had occurred; then they went on to kill thousands of other Russians in the name of their new regime.
Was there a mixture of anger in their scheme? Probably; but apparently the main purpose of the murders was apparently to make sure there would never be another Romanov to claim the throne of Russia thereby eliminating any threat to them;  and making sure there wouldn't be a rallying point for the Whites. Unfortunately for them, and thankfully for everybody else, the cousins, sisters, aunts and uncles got out of the country and the Bolshevik attempt to eliminate all Romanovs from the planet failed.


DIANE

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Re: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?
« Reply #159 on: September 29, 2011, 09:56:03 AM »
They both had tragic ends, of course, but I think that Marie Antoinette had the much harder life.  Alexandra had a terrific marriage with a man who reciprocated her passion.  Louis XVI was a swell guy, but it's clear that he preferred playing with locks and keys (hear that, Freud?) to spending time in the marital bed.  

Not too long before the Revolution, Marie A. and Louis lost the heir to the throne to tuberculosis, which, given the Revolution's sadistic treatment of the future Louis XVII, was a not small mercy.  

It seems that the French Revolutionaries trained a particularly awul hatred on Marie Antoinette, forbiding her even to change her undergarments privately before her execution, even though she was bleeding badly.  

Her trial where she was baselessly accused of having incestuous contact with her own son was both her Calvary and her glory.  

The sad life of Madame Royale suggests that being the sole survivor of an executed family is a fate crueler than death.  Alexandra was treated cruelly, Marie A. sadistically.

So, she gets my vote, assuming anyone wishes to count, as the most Tragic Queen Consort.

And, in any event, for pure class, nothing beats Marie A.'s comment to Samson, the exectioner, after she accidently stepped on his foot on the scaffold, "Pardon me, sir, I did not mean to do that".  
there are many similitude but one difference is very important:M.A. was forced to get married with  a man she never saw before ( and if maybe she would never fall in love) Alix and N. fighted with strenght against family's desires to get married.

Selencia

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Re: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?
« Reply #160 on: October 09, 2011, 03:54:15 AM »
There are other differences as well:
Marie Antoinette had one child survive the overall fate of the family and she recognized the danger she and her family were in and tried to flee.

DIANE

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Re: Marie Antoinette and Alexandra--Who's more tragic?
« Reply #161 on: October 09, 2011, 04:04:39 AM »
There are other differences as well:
Marie Antoinette had one child survive the overall fate of the family and she recognized the danger she and her family were in and tried to flee.

do you know the story that in fact that survived daughter was a illegitim child of Louis ( so pretty like Madame Royale) and the real daughter was living under a false name in incognito?
I always wonder how so scaring events could change a young lady pshicological behaviour ( poeple shouting in Versailles who want your mother's head , going to Paris, going to the Tower, your parents killes, your brother disappeared, you, alone, in a dark Tower with soldiers who can enter in your bedroom during night and day hours...)