Wild story on wikipedia

[RealAnastasia]

The whole story is absurd...The also false rumors that I've heard about, always mentioned Olga Nicholaievna as being raped by Rasputin (I don't believe a single word of it. The "historian" Massimo Grillandi, trais to persuade his readers that Olga had been iniciated in sex by father Gregory, and distroyed the romantic idea she formerly had about love...a more absurd notion than imagining Tatiana watching Rasputing castrated before her eyes)...I think that Tatiana seemed to appreciate Rasputin a lot, since she would copy his phrases as if they were a great learninf for her. Tatiana was a very deep religious person and a very innocent young girl who wouldn't accept that Rasputin was not the saint her mother believed he was.

Besides, she would find very difficult to go out the Palace without being noticed. OTMA carreid a very Victorian lifestyle, and no nice young girls would have left her house at night unchaperoned...

RealAnastasia.

[thelastimpofrussia]

I agree with the whole "she would be noticed" deal, but just to point out, she wasn't a Victorian Victorian lady. She pelted people with paper balls from a window in 1914. I suppose they may have thought about going outside without a chaperone. But the circumstances that she would have been at, it doesn't seem likely that she was there, without having some sort of mental break down.

[Olga Bernice]

Good grief, the things people do for attention! Sometimes, you just have to draw the line and say, "Look. This is how it happened, and no amount of research or arguing can change that!" As with the Tatiana case, and the Olga-and-Rasputin case. Ugh.

[Alixz]

I don't know what I believe about Felix and Rasputin - but there was the "mysterious Lt. Sukhotin".

He is always mentioned as being there but there is not much other information about him.  He also seems to disappear while Purishkevich and Felix and Dmitri are all tied to the murder after the fact.

Dr. Lazavert is also supposed to have been there, but disappears after the fact even though he is the one who was supposedly in charge of the drugs that didn't work.

And Irina didn't refuse to meet Rasputin or attend the party.  She was in the Crimea and not exactly next door.  She herself told Felix to be careful as she was confused by his letters to her about the whole matter.  Others were surprised that she was used a "bait" because they all knew that she was not in St Petersburg.

I have often thought it odd that Rasputin, with his network of spies, did not know that Irina was in the Crimea with her parents.  It was almost too easy to lead him to the slaughter.

[clockworkgirl21]

This reminds me of that awful, but I'm ashamed to admit, interesting book by Carolly Erickson called "The Tsarina's Daughter." Almost the entire thing was fake, and it included a scene where Tatiana shot at Rasputin after he tried to touch her inappropriately.

Looks like Ms. Erickson didn't make it up, although someone sure did!

[Kalafrana]

Sukhotin does, indeed, 'disappear'. Purishkevich and Lazovert took themselves off to the Rumanian front in Purishkevich's hospital train the evening after the murder, leaving Dimitri and Yussoupove to face what little music there was.

Ann

[nena]

Alixz, Felix wrote that Rasputin had thought that Irina was in Petrograd at that time, and that he wanted to meet her. Also, Irina wrote to her husband to be careful, and that she would come to Petrograd on 12th/13th December, that she did not want Felix anything to do without her presence. Alas, another letter from Dec. 3rd came to Felix where Irina says 'Don't drag me there, better you come here'. But Rasputin was told that despite all, Irina would truly came to meet R. At that time, Irina did not feel well, so she refused to come. GD Nicholas Mikhailovich wrote that dr. Lazavert was the one, who poisoned the wine. Mr. Sukhotin is mentioned in meeting from Nov. of 1916, where the participants had made plans. Yes, the whole story is surrounded with mistery, doubtful  facts, etc. I also think that we should move this discussion somewhere in Rasputin's section.

[Forum Admin]

This has all been hashed and re-hashed over in the Rasputin threads.  Dr. Richard Cullen's recent book puts to rest most of the story. Irina wanted nothing to do with Rasputin period. She didn't want Felix involved. There was no poison and the whole story that Felix and Dmitry and Lazovert told publicly was totally false and designed to hide the real truth. Rasputin was lured to the Moika Palace by the lie Irina was there, Felix, Dmitri, Lazovert and a fourth never named person (who may well have been a British Agent) executed Rasputin in the Courtyard. Period.

[nena]

I agree with FA completely - that is why Irina had written '...better you come here' to Felix. Yes, they  hid some things.

[Forum Admin]

They hid everything actually. Not just "some things".  Felix and Dmitri HAD to be seen as the "fall guys" in the murder because they were they only ones who were immune to arrest and prosecution for the crime as being of the Imperial Blood.  They took the blame to keep the real murderers from going to jail and being executed.

[Maria_Pavlovna]

I agree with the whole "she would be noticed" deal, but just to point out, she wasn't a Victorian Victorian lady. She pelted people with paper balls from a window in 1914.

Tatiana and her sisters were immature and native as their mother wanted them to be since she found young ladies of Russian society to be foolish and think they only of soldiers.

Russian Society as been known to be very scandalized and almost barbaric with love affairs and such. As Alix has been raised as a tight lace Victorian Princess, she wanted her daughters to be raised as such. Innocent and native.

As for the paper ball throwing, my guess that naughty Anastasia (still a child at the time) had Tatiana to play in her games...and possibly hoped that their mother would never find out. they were Just having fun and in their way of being naughty lol

[TimM]

Don't forget that anyone can edit Wikipedia, so sometimes you'll find strange things on it.

[RealAnastasia]

I agree with the whole "she would be noticed" deal, but just to point out, she wasn't a Victorian Victorian lady. She pelted people with paper balls from a window in 1914.

Tatiana and her sisters were immature and native as their mother wanted them to be since she found young ladies of Russian society to be foolish and think they only of soldiers.

Russian Society as been known to be very scandalized and almost barbaric with love affairs and such. As Alix has been raised as a tight lace Victorian Princess, she wanted her daughters to be raised as such. Innocent and native.

As for the paper ball throwing, my guess that naughty Anastasia (still a child at the time) had Tatiana to play in her games...and possibly hoped that their mother would never find out. they were Just having fun and in their way of being naughty lol

   Yes, this was what I anted to say. OTMA were living in "Edwardian times", but Alix raised them as she had been raised : as aVictorian girls. She wanted them innocent and naïve, as Gotjhic Empress said. I cannot imagine any of them getting out the Palace without another person to take care of them.

        RealAnastasia.

P.S: Yes , Tim. Wikipedia is not always a reliable source to find historic information. 

[Kalafrana]

Not so much going out of the palace with someone 'to take care of them', but someone to keep an eye on them.

And even adult royalties didn't necessarily have much idea about ordinary life. There is a nice story of Karl I of Austria during one of his attempts to reinstall himself as King of Hungary. Passing through Vienna en route from Switzerland, Karl took a taxi and gave himself away by giving the taxi driver an absurdly large tip!

Ann

[Alixz]

The article is actually correct. According to Paleologue's memoirs, there was indeed a rumor circulating that Tatiana had witnessed the murder:

They are also whispering that the Grand Duchess Tatiana, the Emperor's second daughter, witnessed the drama disguised as a lieutenant of the Chevaliers-Gardes, so that she could revenge herself on Rasputin who had tried to violate her.
And carrying the vindictive ferocity of the moujik into the world of the Court, they add that to satiate her thirst for vengeance the dying Grigory was castrated before her eyes.

~Maurice Paleologue, Memoirs - 20 December
quoted in A Lifelong Passion, pgs 508-9

I just want to remind everyone that even though Paleologue's memory may have been faulty, this quote does come from him and he was the President of France.

I don't have Paleologue's Memoirs, but I wonder if he states any reputable sources for the rumor?

Just to be safe here, I want to say that I never discount anything at all when it comes to Rasputin and the Imperial Family.  I know that other's do and that there are some who are armed with an unshakable belief in the innocence and naivety of not only Alix but of her daughters as well.
They may have been naive but I don't believe they were stupid.
And the throwing of paper balls at people doesn't prove anything except bad judgement on the part of either Tatiana or whomever convinced her to do it.  It might show that she was childish but not a child.
As years go by and more and more new papers are released and facts brought to light, new information is always coming.

I look forward to Richard Cullen's new book and what he has found out about the whole Rasputin murder.  I remember when other authors first maintained that there were more people at Felix's mansion on that night and the derision these authors endured.  Now it is accepted as fact that not only were there women present but that there might even have been a British Secret Agent involved.

As for Wikipedia, I never accept it as a place to get the facts on anything.  It is too easy for anyone to edit it and change the tone of the information.