Author Topic: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness  (Read 200804 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

helenazar

  • Guest
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2005, 03:03:35 PM »
That's right, we will never know. And yes, it is very sad because they both really wanted children, I think. But they did get to raise Dmitri and Marie, although I don't think Ella was that thrilled with the idea initially...

Offline Martyn

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7022
  • Martyn's Chips
    • View Profile
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #46 on: January 18, 2005, 06:09:53 AM »
Quote
That's right, we will never know. And yes, it is very sad because they both really wanted children, I think. But they did get to raise Dmitri and Marie, although I don't think Ella was that thrilled with the idea initially...


Absolutely.  Perversely she may not have been the ideal parent, if one listens to the opinions (rather subjective ones I suspect) of their ward Maria Pavlovna the younger.  Ella's love for Serge was very exclusive and I have sometimes wondered whether he tried to excite her jealousy through his openly expressed affection for Paul's children.  At any rate, who is to say that they would have been more successful with their own offspring?
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

jfkhaos

  • Guest
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #47 on: January 18, 2005, 08:02:18 AM »
I don't think that questioning Ella's relationship with her own potential children should be colored by her relationship with Marie and Dimitri.  It must be remembered that Serge showed much more kindness to the children than he did to Ella, and for a woman who cannot have children, and who may have been reminded of this fact on a daily basis, to have two children put under her and her husband's wardship would not have been easy for her.

Offline Martyn

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7022
  • Martyn's Chips
    • View Profile
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #48 on: January 18, 2005, 08:13:01 AM »
I think that it is a valid question.  I appreciate the point that you have just made but I don't think that it illustrates either way whether she would have been a good parent to her own progeny or not.
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

jfkhaos

  • Guest
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #49 on: January 18, 2005, 08:48:54 AM »
That was my purpose exactly.  There is no way we can ever know what kind of parent she would have been, but I think she would have been a good one.  It would have been interesting to see her grow old and become a matriarch of her own branch of the family.  By the way, what would their names be?  I mean, Nicholas Alexandrovich..how would the name Sergei have been placed in a patronym?

bluetoria

  • Guest
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #50 on: January 18, 2005, 10:33:24 AM »
Quote
I think that it is a valid question.  I appreciate the point that you have just made but I don't think that it illustrates either way whether she would have been a good parent to her own progeny or not.

Judging by the accounts of the way she cared for the orphans and children whom poor & sick parents brought to be cared for by her in the orphanage, she would probably have made a lovely mother.

helenazar

  • Guest
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #51 on: January 18, 2005, 10:52:52 AM »
Quote
I don't think that questioning Ella's relationship with her own potential children should be colored by her relationship with Marie and Dimitri.  It must be remembered that Serge showed much more kindness to the children than he did to Ella, and for a woman who cannot have children, and who may have been reminded of this fact on a daily basis, to have two children put under her and her husband's wardship would not have been easy for her.


Yes, I agree. This is also a woman who must have, at least on some level, felt neglected by her husband, and seeing that he has that much more affection for these children than for herself could not have been easy for her...

Offline Martyn

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7022
  • Martyn's Chips
    • View Profile
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #52 on: January 18, 2005, 01:49:52 PM »
Quote
That was my purpose exactly.  There is no way we can ever know what kind of parent she would have been, but I think she would have been a good one.  It would have been interesting to see her grow old and become a matriarch of her own branch of the family.  By the way, what would their names be?  I mean, Nicholas Alexandrovich..how would the name Sergei have been placed in a patronym?


You think so...Fine.  It would have been interesting for a lot of things to have turned out differently....; we will never know the answer to this one.
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

Offline Martyn

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 7022
  • Martyn's Chips
    • View Profile
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #53 on: January 18, 2005, 01:56:21 PM »
Quote

Yes, I agree. This is also a woman who must have, at least on some level, felt neglected by her husband, and seeing that he has that much more affection for these children than for herself could not have been easy for her...


Yes I don't doubt that either.  We must bear in mind that these children may not have been easy to deal with either, having lost their mother at an early age and been removed form the care of their father; it may well be that Ella had her work cut out in attampting to be a parent to them.  We are all familiar with the 'good cop, bad cop approach' - Ella may have been obliged to take this line in her efforts to bring the children up in the way that she and Serge saw fit.  It might easily have been a case of him indulging and her correcting the indulgence, hence he gets off with gold stars and MP the younger condemns Ella for eternity in her memoirs to the label of 'bad parent'.  We can't rule out that she wasn't actually maternal in the natural sense; that she was admired for her care and attitudes towards the sick and orphaned, does not necessarily qualify her to be mother of the year.......
'For a galant spirit there can never be defeat'....Wallis Windsor

'The important things is not what they think of me, but what I think of them.'......QV

Penny_Wilson

  • Guest
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #54 on: January 18, 2005, 02:41:34 PM »
Quote
Thanks Dennis, very illuminating.  Odd that the Church should even wish to raise the issue, as Helen suggests, as it can only invite controversy surely?


I have a bit more information, which might shed some light on the Church's interest in the matter.  This information is to be found in the latest part of John Rohl's monumental biography of the last Kaiser.  It was written by the Kaiser in the margin of an official report -- please be aware though, that some might find this offensive, although I have redacted part of the "worst" word, so please don't scroll down if you're sensitive or under 18.  Thanks. ;)
 
And please -- I didn't write this, I'm just reporting it:

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
"In January 1891, Kaiser Wilhelm II reported that the Grand Duke was in the midst of a bitter fight with an elderly cleric in the Orthodox Church, who 'discovered that Serge was b****ring his handsome young domestic chaplain.
He transferred the latter at once.  This so enraged the pious Prince that he contrived to have the old man transferred!  I have spoken out before now of my fear that Grand Duke Serge would bring about the downfall and destruction of his family.  It appears that it is so.'"
("Wilhelm II: The Kaiser's Personal Monarchy, 1888-1900," by John C. G. Röhl and Sheila de Bellaigue,
Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2004, page 123)

Generally, I find debates on Serge's personal life to be both interesting and at the same time kind of pointless.  I have doubts about virtually everything I have read or heard about Serge -- every piece of testimony one way or another can be refuted by another piece of testimony.  Yet it seems to me that there was SOMETHING going on in Serge's personal life.

If it turns out that Serge was merely a gay man, then I have no problem believing and accepting that he and Ella were soul-mates, and that being together to share life was more important to them than any "conventional" rewards of marriage.  As several have said elsewhere, deep love is possible without sex.

But I would find the relationship with Ella unutterably more disturbing if the rumors of Serge's pedophilia were ever proven true.  I am not certain how much of these rumors is current coin in the general Romanov world, but I do know that I have heard of them from serious scholars, some of  whom are more inclined to believe them than not.  I DO have an interest in Serge and Ella, but they are not all that high on my list of things to do, so I have not pursued this issue in primary research.  For those who are interested in doing so, I have heard that memoirs of members of the Corps de Pages contain some primary testimony.

On the other hand -- and to be fair -- Serge does not seem to have scared the young children of his family at all.  Dimitry and Marie seem to have had a good relationship with him, and in GK's "In The Marble Palace," he recalls how he and his brother Ioann used to shove each other all over the place on carriage rides to visit Serge and Ella, so as to be placed well enough to be first out of the carriage to "run to the study and jump in Uncle Serge's lap."

This is all I have on the question of Serge's sexuality.  I hope we can continue to discuss this civilly...   :D

Penny_Wilson

  • Guest
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2005, 02:45:32 PM »
Oh.  And I think that it would be very important -- if anyone wants to continue this discussion -- that a definite distinction be made between being homosexual and being pedophiliac.  Not all pedophiles are homosexual (or even men -- I'm looking at you, Mary Kay Letourneau), and not all homosexuals are pedophiles (in fact, I believe that I have read that statistically, pedophiles are more likely to be hetero).

At any rate, let's be sophisticated about this...  8)

bluetoria

  • Guest
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2005, 02:49:36 PM »
It may be true...but don't you have doubts since it comes from Wilhelm who never forgave Ella for rejecting him & went out of his way to destroy the reputation of his rival...It seems particularly odd that Serge chose a chaplain since he was so religious in other ways...but then again...
Did Ella presumably know about this?
If she knew that the Kaiser had made this known, and it were not true, could she have sat beside him at the moment of Alix's engagament as though nothing had happened?


rskkiya

  • Guest
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2005, 02:50:30 PM »
Soul Mates?
I thought that that term was a late 20th century "new age" phrase. I never have read that these two were 'soul mates." Sounds like a flowery romance novel to me. :D
Also, I was not aware that Sergie's possibly being a homosexual would have made any children "fear" him at all? :o :o

Goodness WHO said Sergie was a pedophile!

Sorry Penny, I know, you're just reporting this information.

rskkiya
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by rskkiya »

bluetoria

  • Guest
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2005, 02:50:52 PM »
Just remembered, too, Ella writing to QV about the 'disgusting lies' that people spread about them...Perhaps this was just another.

Offline Marlene

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 2466
  • I live and breath QVD
    • View Profile
    • Royal Musings
Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2005, 03:05:38 PM »
Quote
Just remembered, too, Ella writing to QV about the 'disgusting lies' that people spread about them...Perhaps this was just another.



It could also have been Ella's way of dealing with the situation - she didn't want to discuss it (as was the way)
Author of Queen Victoria's Descendants,
& publisher of Royal Book News.
Visit my blog, Royal Musings  http://royalmusingsblogspotcom.blogspot.com/