Author Topic: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness  (Read 175758 times)

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Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #465 on: November 10, 2012, 12:11:28 PM »
Yes...but no confirmation that it ever was too ? I put a lot credence on the fact that Alexander III knew his brother cannot have children. Yet Ella still goes to fertility spas for to conceive. I do wonder maybe like Marie Louise, her info on sex was as naive ?

I think there where would be no smoke if there wasn't a fire. Nobody question Ernie's sexuality until Ducky spoke out. Most certainly QV knew something about Ella's marriage and did not like it.

Barring irrefutable proof, it's impossible to disprove a negative. There is no confirmation that Gladsone wasn't Jack the Ripper or that Prince Philip didn't engineer a hit on Princess Di.

There was smoke without fire when it was widely believed that Alexandra was a German spy, Rasputin's mistress, and had given her daughter's to the "mad monk".

It is unlikely, that the children of the progressive Princess Alice of Hesse were sex education naive. It's far fetched that the highly educated Grand Duke Serge was a procreation dolt who consulted doctors & shipped his wife off to fertitlity "spas".  

What was Serge anticipating, an immaculate conception?

Queen Victoria "knew something"?  

Other than that QV had heard gossip precisely what did she confirm as fact?

To reinterate. How many people were in bed with Serge & Ella?

There are millions of happily married couples who's unions remained childless. Were they ALL homosexuals who didn't consummate their marriages?

« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 12:25:55 PM by perdita »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #466 on: November 10, 2012, 02:23:22 PM »
Well...You can spin it into different directions, but QV does have information through her network of relatives and even politicians (foreign office). So the fact that she thought it important enough to talk to Ella about it merits some consideration. After all she was not only Ella's grandmama, but also Queen of Great Britain and Empress of India.

Indeed...If you read the letters between Alicky & Rasputin, are you sure they were not emotionally entangled ? The relationship between Alicky, Anna & Nicky was also murky as in the new book "Alix & Nicky". I found it bizarre that Alicky could have such a friend, and one who openly admires her husband. No wonder Missy thought the whole thing about Tsarkoe Selo is as unreal as a dream. This is no smoke, there is definitely fire here.

Since there is no info about that, I do assume that anything is possible. Also even members of the family like Sandro believed the worst of Serge. You think you know him better than his own family ?   

Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #467 on: November 10, 2012, 02:28:50 PM »
As I have said above, Alexander III's letter was written when Ella and Serge had been married for nearly eight years. In the days before contraception, a normally fertile couple would produce their first child within two years of the wedding, very often less than one year. Obviously, there were exceptions, but if after nearly eight years there was still no sign of a child, but in the days before fertility treatment it could reasonably be assumed that there weren't going to be any children. It is quite possible that that is what Alexander was alluding to.

Ann

Many well known celebs wanted children, but were unable to conceive--or gave up opting to adopt.

Classic Hollywood: Mary Pickford, Jack Benny, Bob Hope, George Burns, Al Jolson, Fred MacMurray (married twice), Barbara Stanwyck, Harpo Marx, James Cagney, Fredrick March, Irene Dunne, Pat O'Brian, Joan Crawford, Alexis Smith, Paulette Goddard, Claudette Colbert,  Merle Oberon, Johnny Mercer, Gene Autry (married twice), Carole Lombard, Ginger Rogers, Linda Darnell...etc.

Famous case: Lucille Ball married Arnez in 1940. First child: 1951.

Royals?

Maximilian and Carlota of Mexico. No issue.

Princess Louise of England & Duke of Argyle. No issue.

Elizabeth of Rumania & George Of Greece. No issue.

The Crown Prince & Princess of Japan married in June 1993 and were unable to conceive child until Dec 2001.  Only child: daughter.


In Vitro fertilization is a big business generating billions.

Primary infertility affects about 6.1 million in the U.S. alone.

Artificial insemination was available to humans as early as the late 19th century. First doner case reported in 1984. Some religions did not permit this procedure.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #468 on: November 10, 2012, 02:41:11 PM »
The cases:

Princess Louise's husband Lord Lorne was gay and liked young men.

Maximilian gave vd to Caroltta, so no children.

Elisabeth had miscarriage before her marriage to George.

And more...

Lucien Lelong to Princess Natalie Palay

Liza Minnelli & her last husband 

Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #469 on: November 10, 2012, 04:25:39 PM »
Well...You can spin it into different directions, but QV does have information through her network of relatives and even politicians (foreign office). So the fact that she thought it important enough to talk to Ella about it merits some consideration. After all she was not only Ella's grandmama, but also Queen of Great Britain and Empress of India.

Indeed...If you read the letters between Alicky & Rasputin, are you sure they were not emotionally entangled ? The relationship between Alicky, Anna & Nicky was also murky as in the new book "Alix & Nicky". I found it bizarre that Alicky could have such a friend, and one who openly admires her husband. No wonder Missy thought the whole thing about Tsarkoe Selo is as unreal as a dream. This is no smoke, there is definitely fire here.

Since there is no info about that, I do assume that anything is possible. Also even members of the family like Sandro believed the worst of Serge. You think you know him better than his own family ?  

No doubt Alexandra pitied Anna and did not take her infantile infatuations seriously. Put down Alexandra's tolerance to a perception that Anna was a child-like character (& life long virgin) to be babied & humored.

Missy intimated that Nicholas & Alexandra lived in a vacuum shut off from the rest of the world. She did not suggest that the couple were engaged in sexual shenanigans. Missy admitted (in a limited sphere) Alexandra was an upstanding Christian and a loving wife & mother.
However, a disastrous consort for Nicholas.

To reinterate. Were QV and Sandro in bed with Serge & Ella? Did either assert that Serge & Ella had not consummated their marriage? Did they present proofs or was it just idle speculation & gossip?  (Ella emphatically denied all rumors.)

"Even members of the family like Sandro believed the worse of Serge."

Aside from upstanding paragon Sandro--WHO?

Did any other member of the Romanov family back up Sandro's non-specific allegations? (The nearest Sandro got to being specific was to allege that Serge was "disagreeable" & "incompetent".)

Extended families are not immune to engaging in intrigue or conjecturing about one another. Especially family members with a history of acrimony who despise one another. (i.e., Sandro & Serge.)

Straitlaced stickler Alexander 111 was also a member of Serge's own family.  The Tsar was privy to considerably more family info & spy networking than Sandro. Had Serge been the "flaunting" pervert of legend, QV would have confirmed his infamy in writing and Alexander would not have honored him with the highest position in the land, Governor of Moscow. Nor would Nicholas 11 have granted (or Paul assented) to give custody of Marie & Dmitri to Serge.

Sandro was neither an impartial witness--nor an impeccable character. Far from it.  In fact, there were MANY more members of the Romanov family who spoke well of Serge, than who spoke well of Sandro.  

In truth, Ella far preferred Serge as a huband--than Xiena preferred Sandro as a husband.  That is a fact.  

Why would anyone think that they know Serge better than his own wife & family?

There is no evidence that Ella & Serge were unfaithful or lacking in love in their marriage. The same cannot be said of Missy or Sandro, etc. Lots of smoke, and definately fire THERE.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2012, 05:00:16 PM by perdita »

Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #470 on: November 10, 2012, 04:53:57 PM »
The cases:

Princess Louise's husband Lord Lorne was gay and liked young men.

Maximilian gave vd to Caroltta, so no children.

Elisabeth had miscarriage before her marriage to George.

And more...

Lucien Lelong to Princess Natalie Palay

Liza Minnelli & her last husband 

Did Elizabeth conceive a child with George of Greece?  If not, was that because he was Gay?

Does anyone know whether Paley or Minnelli had sex with their Gay husbands? Proves nothing one way or another. MANY Gay men have sex with their wives & have children.

The fact that Maximilian had VD would not have initially prevented Carlota of Mexico from conceiving children.

Are you seriously suggesting that EVERY married woman who does not conceive children has a Gay husband?

Infertility affects 6.1 million in the U.S. alone.

What was the point of Serge & Ella sharing the same bed (unusual for the aristocracy) & frequenting "fertility spas" if they had not consummated their marriage?


Offline Mandie, the Gothic Empress

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #471 on: November 10, 2012, 04:57:52 PM »
This is only going around in circles and useless! and I agree 100% with Perdita.

 WE WILL NEVER know the truth of Ella and Serge's childlessness unless we get the dead talking! It is a fact that it did bother them that they couldn’t have children, and Ella regretted her niece and nephew for obvious reasons – they’re not hers (children born to royals, especially a son, is like a crowning achievement for royal women - like I guess for an example and in comparing is have honors and graduation collage for a good high paying job now a days), her husband loves them and gets them most of his time etc...

I HIGHLY doubt that Ella was a virgin; she was married for twenty one years for Pete’s sake! I bid as much as an odd and snobby royal man like Serge – gay, bi or straight -  would have consummate their marriage even if the marriage was unhappy and troubled. In Ella’s own words, to her she and Serge had a good marriage out of love and understanding.

Like for an example of gay royal men consummating with their royal wives - the foxy and mean Tsar Ferdinand of Bulgaria, a gay man and openly about it (which was unheard of at the time, unlike now) being a “King/Tsar” have to do his duty- having a Successor- an heir- better off being of your own blood- a son! Da! Even though the Tsar’s marriages were very unhappy however with his first wife Marie Louise was indeed consummated – four kids.

Offline grandduchessella

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #472 on: November 10, 2012, 05:26:42 PM »
The cases:

 
 
Elisabeth had miscarriage before her marriage to George. 
 

Didn't Elizabeth have an abortion before her marriage and a miscarriage during?
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Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #473 on: November 10, 2012, 05:54:43 PM »
Yes. That was the rumor.

I don't think discrediting Sandro make a good case for Serge. Apart from Sandro, he was not popular with other members of his family. Even though Misst liked him, she admiit there is something strange about her uncle.

Yes. A love and understanding marriage may not be consummated just like Louis XVI & Marie Antoinette. There is a thing called "friendship marriages". The fact that Serge was very jealous of Ella and make sure he was in control points to the fact he was not secure in his standing with his wife. That was the reason  why he forbid her to read "Anna Karenina".

Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #474 on: November 11, 2012, 12:07:45 AM »
Yes. That was the rumor.

I don't think discrediting Sandro make a good case for Serge. Apart from Sandro, he was not popular with other members of his family. Even though Misst liked him, she admiit there is something strange about her uncle.

Yes. A love and understanding marriage may not be consummated just like Louis XVI & Marie Antoinette. There is a thing called "friendship marriages". The fact that Serge was very jealous of Ella and make sure he was in control points to the fact he was not secure in his standing with his wife. That was the reason  why he forbid her to read "Anna Karenina".

Has DNA confirmed that Louis XV1's marriage was never consummated?

If you don't condemn & excoriate KR & Sandro for their marital trangressions confirmed--then why slander with suspicion Serge's marital malfeasance not confirmed?

There is no proof that Serge & Ella had a "friendship marriage".

That Serge was a martinet proves nothing with respect to his wife. Serge was controlling of everyone. As was his tyranical sister Marie Alexandra.

Marie Pavlovna, quote: "He demanded of us, as of all his household or followers, exact & immediate obedience."

Victoria Battenerg wrote that Ella's marriage was a "happy one", though it was Serge who was very much the Lord & Master, and Ella was very willing that it be so. In fact, Ella exhibited the same preoccupation & submissiveness towards her husband, that she later displayed towards her religious order. Traits not entirely meeting with Serge's approval.

Marie Pavlovna: "Although himself pious & scrupulous in observance of all the rites of orthodoxy, uncle Serge regarded with anxiety his wife's absorption in things spiritual, & ended by regarding it as immoderate."

Other than rumor where is there evidence that Serge forbad Ella to read "Anna Karenina"--or any other book? Serge was well read & was a great admirer of Russian authors--including Dostoevsky and Tolstoy. It was Serge who encouraged Ella to read Dostoevsky. Marie Alexandrovich habitually mocked Ella's prissy attitudes towards literature & never indicated that Serge was the culprit responsible.

Marie Pavlovna, quote: "The things (she) read must have been childish. I will never forget the difficulties my aunt had with "Recollections Of A Dead-House", her first attempt to appreciate Dostoevsky. She did not know enough Russian to read it herself; one of the ladies read it alone to her and so great was my aunt's fear of details too realistic that she would permit no one to attend these readings! ...She had no admiration for French literature; once she said to me, apropos of a person who's life she found somewhat frivolous, that it was French novels with yellow covers that had corrupted her ideas. At this period she read only English books & chose her authors with great caution."

At no time did Marie Alexandrovich or Marie Pavlovna indicate that it was Serge who forbad Ella to read certain books. (Which Marie Pavlovna most certianly would have noted in her detailed narrative.) MA & MP put the onus entirely on Ella's own taste in literature which they considered self-censored, "school girl", & childish.

Ella didn't HAVE to read Anna Karenina. That scenerio was a constant played out ad nauseum in the Romanov family.

To reinterate. A myriad of Serge's family & friends professed "liking" "love" or "respect" for him, among them:
Grand Duchess Elizabeth--wife.
Alexander 111
KR--and all his family.
Grand Duke Paul
Marie Alexandrovich
Victoria of Battenberg
Ernest of Hesse
Queen Olga of Greece.
Princess Alexandra of Greece
Princess Marie of Greece
Marie of Rumania--and sisters.
Grand Duke Kyril & Victoria Melita
Olga Alexandrovna
Zinaida Yusupova
Countess Kleinmichichel & daughters.
Muriel Buchanan..

« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 12:41:00 AM by perdita »

Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #475 on: November 11, 2012, 02:41:34 AM »
Yes. But Ella was not one of those women. She could be nice to children outside her home, but to have constant reminder that she could not was painful.

Don't think Ella was ready to be a foster parent when situation forced the children into her house (when Paul ran away with his mistress to Paris). She did not adopt them but had tio live with the situation. There is a big difference between that and a well thought of decision to adopt. The fact that she got along with Dimitry while had problems with Marie spoke volumes. I don't think Ella could fix Marie's father issues (problems with men all her life) if she tried.

When did Ella say that she did not want children in her house because it was a constant reminder that she could not have children?

In fact, Ella told Maria Pavlovna precisely why she didn't want children in her house.
(Dimitri was still living when Marie's book was published & was a witness to the verasity of her words.)

Quote:

"Throughout our early childhood--throughout, indeed, our uncle's lifetime--Aunt Ella showed no interest in us or anything that concerned us, and she saw as little of us as she could. She appeared to resent our presence in the household, and our uncle's evident affection for us."

1905

"(Aunt Ella) confessed to me that she had suffered a great deal because of the affection which my uncle had shown us so completely, especially since Dimitri & I had come to be part of his household in Moscow. She acknowledged herself guilty of brusquesness and injustice, born of that jealousy; and set herself now to make amends, attaching herself particularily to my brother,......They were bound together by a bond of real affection until the day when events seperated them forever. As for me, I remained always a little apart, and whether that was my fault or my aunt's, I cannot say."

Other than that Ella was possessive of Serge and did not want to share his love with Marie & Dimitri, no other rationale for her jealousy was given. If another reason existed it will likely remain unknown.

Just speculation, but what did Ella think of the Grand Duke Serge's strong feelings for Princess Alexandra of Greece?

Marie Pavlovna: "My uncle was profoundly attached to my mother. The early death which came to her, as I have said, at Ilinskoie, left him with a sense of bereavement for which he could never be consoled. He ordered the room in which she had spent her last hours to be kept intact, exactly as they were when she died there. He had the rooms locked, & throughout the remainder of his life, himself guarded the key allowing no one else to enter."

No where does Marie Pavlovna indicate that her own father felt that same lasting grief for his dead wife. It's difficult to explain the vehement & excessive fervor of the Grand Duke Serge & Ella. An enigma, without an extensive paper trail.  Queen Marie of Rumania did say her Uncle Serge was a "fanatic" at heart..."instinctively one felt that his teeth were clinched..".
« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 02:54:24 AM by perdita »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #476 on: November 11, 2012, 01:34:56 PM »
Well...Marie couldn't have known that Ella was actually very popular among children. Both Marie of Greece (Marie Paulovna's Aunt) and Felix Yusspov loved Ella as children.  In fact in "A Romanoc Diary" she wrote Marie was "Spoiled" and quite selfish. What do you say to that ? Her own mother's only sister siding with Ella. Dimitry did not have the same problems with Ella (that is a fact).

Had Ella had been able to have her own children, she might not have resented the invasion of her privacy so much. One also remember that Ella was beloved by her own nieces and nephews. So the children posed a constant reminder that she cannot have children. The blame is always on the woman. Alicky was blamed for her many girls and Ducky had to endure lectures from her grandmother and father to beget a male heir for the House of Hesse. So the pressure was on Ella...

Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #477 on: November 11, 2012, 11:41:01 PM »
Well...Marie couldn't have known that Ella was actually very popular among children. Both Marie of Greece (Marie Paulovna's Aunt) and Felix Yusspov loved Ella as children.  In fact in "A Romanoc Diary" she wrote Marie was "Spoiled" and quite selfish. What do you say to that ? Her own mother's only sister siding with Ella. Dimitry did not have the same problems with Ella (that is a fact).

Had Ella had been able to have her own children, she might not have resented the invasion of her privacy so much. One also remember that Ella was beloved by her own nieces and nephews. So the children posed a constant reminder that she cannot have children. The blame is always on the woman. Alicky was blamed for her many girls and Ducky had to endure lectures from her grandmother and father to beget a male heir for the House of Hesse. So the pressure was on Ella...



All that is known is that the Ella was popular with children who were not living in her household and with whom she was not sharing her husband's affections.

If, as you speculate, it was Serge who refused to consummate the marriage, then why would Ella blame herself when she did not have children?

If Ella rejected Marie & Dimitri because they were a constant reminder of her inability to have children--then why did Serge want them desparently irregardless of their being a reminder that he could not have children?

Why did the Grand Duchess Ella "suffer greatly" because she had to share Serge's affections with Marie & Dimitri?









« Last Edit: November 11, 2012, 11:50:55 PM by perdita »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #478 on: November 12, 2012, 11:48:19 AM »
Yes. Ella was a very creative and moody person at times. It was an invasion of her privacy to see her imperfections.

Not sure if Ella knew how children were created. Louis XCI and Marie Antoinette spent years before getting it right...

Serge wanted children, and by having them over fulfilled his emotional needs for being a parent. He did not care if that would hurt Ella or not, especially since Serge was fond of Alexandra of Greece too.

Ella did not sign on to be a parent to those two, and they were forced upon her without her agreement (Serge was the master remember ?). It is natural for her to resent the intrusion of children into her life. It happens with relatives staying too long in other cases.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #479 on: November 12, 2012, 02:49:12 PM »
Who was Louis LC!? If you mean Louis XVI, there was no "getting it right" it was painful for him to have sex until a minor operation was done. You make it sound like it was their fault. Please try and get the story right, for once.
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