Author Topic: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness  (Read 175760 times)

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Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #480 on: November 12, 2012, 04:49:56 PM »
Yes. Ella was a very creative and moody person at times. It was an invasion of her privacy to see her imperfections.

Not sure if Ella knew how children were created. Louis XC1 and Marie Antoinette spent years before getting it right...

Serge wanted children, and by having them over fulfilled his emotional needs for being a parent. He did not care if that would hurt Ella or not, especially since Serge was fond of Alexandra of Greece too.

Ella did not sign on to be a parent to those two, and they were forced upon her without her agreement (Serge was the master remember ?). It is natural for her to resent the intrusion of children into her life. It happens with relatives staying too long in other cases.

Surely, it did not take 7 years for the courtiers of Louis XCI (?) to explain to his Majesty the facts of life.

The progressive Princess Alice was known a proponent of sex education. If Victoria of Battenburg were sex educated, it's unlikely that her sister Ella would not be.

Supposedly, Ella was fond of Alexandra of Greece too, although it's not known what she felt about Serge's extraodinary attachment to his sister-in-law.

To be fair, when Paul broke his word to the Emperor & abandoned his children (knowing the inevitable consequences) where else could Marie & Dimitri go but to the uncle & aunt who had been nearest to Paul & who were closest to them?

According to Marie Pavlovna, the Grand Duke Serge followed Paul to Europe when he eloped with his mistress & made a good faith effort to persude his beloved brother not to abandon his children.

Marie Pavlovna, 1902:

"Uncle Serge & Aunt Ella came to see us for a few days before departing for abroad. They too seemed sad, cast down, there was that in their attitude towards us, my aunt's in particular--which aroused in us a vague presentment."

"Our aunt & uncle's trip abroad, it now appeared, had been to Rome to meet our banished father; they would soon come back, & we would see them, we were told....We found both of them overcome with sorrow; they cried over us a long time. My uncle sharply denounced Mmm. Pistolkors; he accused her of having divorced a suitable husband to ruin my father's life & future, and of now taking him from his children, who needed him."

"..despite the great sorrow that my uncle felt at his brother's mesalliance he could not conceal the joy he felt at the fact that from now on he would be able to keep us entirely to himself. He kept saying "It's I who am now your father, & you are MY children."

The Grand Duchess Ella did not blame Serge, but instead harbored an implaccable resentment toward the Grand Duke Paul. Ella wanted no contact with Paul & his wife, whatsoever.

1908

" My aunt's attitude toward my father throughout all these happenings (Marie's engagement) hurt him profoundly, he held it against her always...My father told me later that my aunt had exasperated him beyond measure--that she was distant & so different from her former self, he could not make her out."

1918

"My aunt had never become reconciled to the thought that the wife of my father--fully pardoned & re-established in his rights by the Emperor--had received an official, although morganic, title and was recognized by everybody, beginning with court. The hostile feeling that she bore for Princess Paley; she transferred to my father's children by his second marriage."

Clearly, the Grand Duchess Ella was in no position to stipulate to the Emperor (or to the Grand Duke Serge) that she would not tolerate her abandoned neice & nephew becoming members of her household because she resented sharing her husband's affections.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2012, 04:52:54 PM by perdita »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #481 on: November 12, 2012, 11:29:27 PM »
I think you answered your question perfectly. Ella was in no position to protest if she felt her privacy was invaded by those two children. But you cannot expect her to be happy about it either.

Also Marie Paulovna did not blame her father in running off with a woman of bad reputation and abandoning them, but blamed Ella for not letting her be close to them ?

It was Serge who wanted them in his house, not Ella. That has been from the start.


Offline Kalafrana

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #482 on: November 13, 2012, 03:43:40 AM »
'Also Marie Paulovna did not blame her father in running off with a woman of bad reputation and abandoning them, but blamed Ella for not letting her be close to them ?'

It is not all that unusual for children to idolise parents who abandon them, and make all kinds of mental 'excuses' for their absence. Someone on the spot is easier to blame!

Ann


Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #483 on: November 13, 2012, 09:56:25 AM »
Indeed. I think Ella did what she could with them. It was from Marie's mouth the her aunt sought to have a better relationship with Marie, but the younger woman who did not give her a chance.

Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #484 on: November 13, 2012, 03:53:31 PM »
'Also Marie Paulovna did not blame her father in running off with a woman of bad reputation and abandoning them, but blamed Ella for not letting her be close to them ?'

It is not all that unusual for children to idolise parents who abandon them, and make all kinds of mental 'excuses' for their absence. Someone on the spot is easier to blame!

Ann



It was easier for Marie Pavlovna to transfer the onus of her father's abandonment of his children (a choice freely made) to the uncle & aunt left to pick up the pieces.  

Serge a willing dupe, Ella not.

In Marie Pavlovna's mind, the sole martyr & victim of the piece was the perpetrator, the Grand Duke Paul. She cast as villians Serge & Ella--& both ended up getting the shaft.  

Nobody got what they wanted.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2012, 04:00:36 PM by perdita »

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #485 on: November 13, 2012, 04:18:16 PM »
Not to mention Marie failed marriages and her distance from her only child. Marie was a very disturbed woman.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #486 on: November 13, 2012, 04:41:52 PM »
That is a clinical diagnosis you have  no qualification to make.
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #487 on: November 13, 2012, 04:47:17 PM »
This is an open discussion not a court of law. Stop tying to bully people around.

Offline Robert_Hall

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #488 on: November 13, 2012, 04:57:27 PM »
I am just stating facts, are you a doctor ?
Life may not be the party we expected, but while we are here, might as well dance..

Do you want the truth, or my side of the story ?- Hank Ketchum.

Offline Svetabel

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #489 on: November 13, 2012, 11:49:53 PM »
Not to mention Marie failed marriages and her distance from her only child. Marie was a very disturbed woman.

It's not a discussion in this topic. Your favourite theme that Maria was a bad girl and so on you can unwind in the proper threads. Though I don't see anything new in such revelations, you always repeat the same things.

Please everyone stay in topic, don't divert the discussion.


Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #490 on: November 14, 2012, 12:52:22 AM »
I don't think Marie was a bad girl. She was a victim of her mother's early death and her father's abandonment. Instead of understanding her problems, she chose to lash out at her uncle and aunt who took care of her and her brother, while their father skipped town. It manifested later in her relationship with other men. Most author wrote that her most devoted person in her life was her brother Dimitri. But even that was not without problems. It was a deeply unfulfilled life and I have great compassion for her.

Just for reference I did study psychology in college and of course know what I am talking about. 

Offline Svetabel

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #491 on: November 14, 2012, 05:51:15 AM »
I don't think Marie was a bad girl. She was a victim of her mother's early death and her father's abandonment. Instead of understanding her problems, she chose to lash out at her uncle and aunt who took care of her and her brother, while their father skipped town. It manifested later in her relationship with other men. Most author wrote that her most devoted person in her life was her brother Dimitri. But even that was not without problems. It was a deeply unfulfilled life and I have great compassion for her.

Just for reference I did study psychology in college and of course know what I am talking about.  

Glad to hear. Do revelate at the proper thread. If you don't understand my polite requests to stay in topic I'll certainly begin moderate your posts. It's enough.

Offline Eric_Lowe

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #492 on: November 14, 2012, 08:34:07 AM »
The topic is their childlessness. There is no medical records of Ella or doctors to understand why she cannot have a baby. There are doubts too on Serge side when Alexander III indicate he knows why his brother cannot have children. Since there is not mention of what happen behind close doors in the letters or journals by either that survive. Everything we say here is speculation.

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #493 on: November 14, 2012, 10:52:44 AM »
'Everything we say here is speculation.'

Exactly. We have the following hypotheses, none of which is capable of proof:
- The marriage was consummated but one or both was infertile, or the two were infertile together, though either might have been capable of producing children by other spouses
- The marriage was not consummated because Serge was impotent
- The marriage was not consummated because Serge was disinclined to consummate it

Since we are in the realms of speculation, we might add a further possibility, that Ella would not allow the marriage to be consummated and Serge did not force her.

We are unlikely ever to know anything definite. The absence of medical records proves nothing - there may have been a diagnosis but nothing was committed to paper or records have been lost (we know full well that Alexei had extensive medical treatment but have any medical records ever surfaced?).

To my mind, infertility is the most likely scenario. If Serge was homosexual that would not of itself prevent him from fathering children - look at KR, Ernst Ludwig, Ferdinand of Bulgaria, Felix Yussupov et al.

Ann

Offline perdita

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Re: GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness
« Reply #494 on: November 14, 2012, 02:50:09 PM »
The topic is their childlessness. There is no medical records of Ella or doctors to understand why she cannot have a baby. There are doubts too on Serge side when Alexander III indicate he knows why his brother cannot have children. Since there is not mention of what happen behind close doors in the letters or journals by either that survive. Everything we say here is speculation.

Kalafrana is correct. It's all conjecture.

Alexander 111 indicated that Serge & Ella would not have children. The Tsar did not specify the reason, regreted that they were denied that comfort from God, and was very sympatheic to their "sad" plight.

It's far fetched to assume that Serge would have confined in the puritanical Alexander 111 that his marriage would not be consummated because he was homosexual. i.e.,--Branding himself in the eyes of the Greek Orthodox Church a sexual deviant.  Arguably, not in character--and homosexuals do have children.

In 1891 Alexander 111 demonstrated his confidence in Serge when he appointed him Governor of Moscow, a position of honor & great consequence.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2012, 02:52:02 PM by perdita »