GDss Ella and GD Sergei's childlessness

[Penny_Wilson]

Soul Mates?
I thought that that term was a late 20th century "new age" phrase. I never have read that these two were 'soul mates." Sounds like a flowery romance novel to me.

It might well me a New Age phrase, but it has some currency here in Cali.  All I meant by it was that they may have just understood each other so well -- and I think we have all read that both were complex and somewhat difficult characters -- and found such acceptance from each other that they just wanted to be together -- even if that meant a less than conventional marriage.

Also, I was not aware that Sergie's possibly being a homosexual would have made any children "fear" him at all?

Not what I meant.  I wasn't referring to homosexuality, but rather pedophilia.  If Serge was a predator, as pedophiles are almost by definition, then he apparently wasn't preying on the children of his family, anyway.

Goodness WHO said Sergie was a pedophile!

Sorry Penny, I know, you're just reporting this information.

rskkiya

A number of former members of the Corps des Pages have said so in their memoirs.  I have heard about them indirectly through researchers and a couple of historians/authors -- and it's not my research, so I was never privy to the details.  But if anyone is interested, clearly researching Corps des Pages memoirs would be a place to start.  

[bluetoria]

If this event took place in January 1891 is this why Serge was transferred to Moscow three months later?
But then...if Ella knew about it, would it not affect her decision to convert at the same time...her husband AND a chaplain = the two most important things in her life? If she did know & it were true, it must have rocked everything she believed & trusted.

[Penny_Wilson]

One way to check it all out might be to explore the history of Serge's household, and confirm that his chaplain was removed at around the indicated time.

[helenazar]

It could also have been Ella's way of dealing with the situation - she didn't want to discuss it (as was the way)

 Denial? Hey, who can blame her if this indeed was true.

[Annie]

I have heard all the stories too, except the one about agreeing to live as brother and sister, that's a new one! If it was a medical problem, it could have been mumps. They would fall and cause infertility in those days. It could have been a lot of things. I'm really surprised as much as been written about them we don't know for sure. I guess they were very private, and I don't blame them.

After reading this last page, I also saw a new one I hadn't heard, the pedophile one I hope that isn't true! I don't think so, surely Marie or Dmitri would have said something.

[TampaBay]

I think it was infertility and that caused problems in the marriage.

TampaBay

[Maria_Pavlovna]

I do think Sergey and Ella loved each other in a way, rarely with married or dating couples.

 But having children? umm? I heared two differnt things one in Peter K's book Tsar,the last world of Nicholas and Alexandra and in Charlotte Z's book The Camera and the Tsars.

K's book: " Ella, whose husband,Sergey, had left her untouched on account of his 'curious tastes'. "


Z's book: " Childlessness was the one enduring sorrow the couple shared and they seem to have known that this would always be the case."

My quote from: SERGEI AND ELLA.

[bluetoria]

Had they had children I imagine Ella's life would have been completely different so perhaps (hopefully) she & the children (who would, by then, no longer have been children) would have escaped.

As it was, perhaps Ella's life was more the kind of life which most suited her and all the aspirations which she had had since childhood.

[HollyMI]

Why would Sergei and Ella sleep in the same bed for their entire marriage and not consummate it?  That does not make sense to me.  I, too, think it was infertility.

Holly

[hikaru]

I think that the turning point of this story is 1892 year.
I this year Sergey wrote the will that everything he has , he will pass to the Maria Pavlovna JR.
Maybe something happened , when he undertood that they will not have children.

Maybe somebody of this forum knows what Ella wrote in the letters to German relatives  on 1892 year.
Maybe there is some hint in her letters.
Maybe not only Sergey, maybe  she also had some problems.

[bluetoria]

It's really quite sad I think that we go on turning over this problem again & again - each with our own opinions - because throughout her entire married life Ella had to endure the shame of the gossip, the sadness of having no children & the humiliation of hearing all the scurrilous stories that were being spread about Serge.
Even now, all these years later, it seems so often that, in spite of all she achieved, this remains the chief preoccupation with her. Poor Ella!  

[hikaru]

Dear Bluetoria.
I am not blaming Ella at all.
I just said that Sergey understood in 1892 year for sure that they can not have own children.
I love Ella very much as you do.
And I love Serge too.
I could imagine how strong was his desire to have children . It was he , who  first built  in Moscow a lot of orphanage houses for poor children.

[bluetoria]

Hikaru, I wasn't criticising your post at all!   I was just thinking that this question appears so often & seems to be one of the first things people ask about Ella. It rather overshadows all the brilliant things she did. And I think it's a little sad that the debate continues after her death when she took such pains to keep the details of her marriage secret when she was on earth.

[CatherineNY]

Didn't Alexander III make a comment to his wife in a letter to the effect that it was sad that Serge and Ella would never be able to have children? He seemed to know something that we don't know -- something that made it obvious to family members that there would be no children born to the marriage. I doubt it would be something like Serge being a homosexual, since it is hard to imagine that Alexander III would make sympathetic comments about that. I have read somewhere that Serge was impotent, which might explain the childlessness and AIII's sympathy, as well as Ella's silence on the subject. (This is all a bit personal, I realize, but then so is the whole thread. And in the case of reigning families, the personal can have profound political implications.)

[HollyMI]

Being homosexual would not have prevented them from children.  Lots of gay men have fathered children.  So it really does seem like it was a physical reason.

Holly