Frederick VIII, Queen Lovisa (Swan) and their family

[grandduchessella]

Can you explain how May can be one of your favourites (that is a genuine question)...I have never been able to find anything likeable about her...Even reading about her she seems very 'stiff' and she and George are the ONLY ones I cannot take to at all...but I would like to be persuaded otherwise.

Because I just find something in her personality to relate to--it's hard to describe. (Perhaps in the same way people can't understand the sympathy towards Alexandra F. when she was often described in such negative terms). I relate to her shyness and sympathize with her trying to get on with Q. Alexandra (smother mother) and her sisters-in-law who always ran her down. I also found the letters she and George wrote to each other romantic and touching in light of their reserved personalities. I think she was complex--and HATE some of the rumors flying around about her behavior towards the Romanovs (and how her wretched son EVIII was the source for much of the most damning parental information) same way as I don't care for how people blame GV for their death when it was more their own fault and of course the Bolsheviks. I think she was a good person (with faults of course) who didn't try to hide who she was. I also like her intelligence and love of the arts--rare among most royals of that time it seems. I guess I just like the complex--Q. Victoria, Vicky, May, MIssy--often more than the more 'popular' choices (Q. Alexandra, MF) who certainly had as many faults but whose charms seem more superficial. But that's just me.  

Plus whose children actually seemed more messed-up:
Queen Alexandra--Eddy (backwards, unhealthy, coddled), George (gruff, reserved), Louise (diffident), Victoria (bitter, spiteful ) and Maud (pretty normal save for how thin she always strove to be). All of her children had a babyish, selfish (probably George the least) streak and weren't intellectually or culturally inclined at all. Plus she's the one who made Toria into a bitter old maid through her selfishness.

May--David (ok, he was a selfish narcissist), Bertie (nervous but dutiful & responsibly and good father), Henry (not too bright but again dutiful), George (complex but intelligent and charming), Mary (responsible and capable if possessed of her mother's shyness and reserve).

George and May's children on the whole ended up more productive in terms of public service whereas Alexandra used her children to compensate for Bertie's running-around and stunted their growth.

[bluetoria]

Thank you for that explanation. Dramatic and fascinating Missy, complex Queen Victoria, brilliant  Vicky...I can understand all of those...I'll read May's biography again and see if I can change my mind.  

[kmerov]

Queen Louise of Denmark was against the marriage of Lovisa and Frederk, because she regarded her mother, Louise of Sweden as being boring, without any charm, and feared that Lovisa would turn out the same..

Another nickname of Lovisa in the family was "Den, klamme", roughly translated as the nasty or gross one!
thats gotta hurt!

Lovisas parents both died within a few years after the marriage, and not having any simblings either to turn to, she must have felt quit alone in her new tight family...

[grandduchessella]

She had a brother Prince Carl Oscar who died in infancy. I wonder how that affected her and if her own Carl (later King of Norway) was named for him?

[Svetabel]

Because I just find something in her personality to relate to--it's hard to describe. (Perhaps in the same way people can't understand the sympathy towards Alexandra F. when she was often described in such negative terms). I relate to her shyness and sympathize with her trying to get on with Q. Alexandra (smother mother) and her sisters-in-law who always ran her down. I also found the letters she and George wrote to each other romantic and touching in light of their reserved personalities. I think she was complex--and HATE some of the rumors flying around about her behavior towards the Romanovs (and how her wretched son EVIII was the source for much of the most damning parental information) same way as I don't care for how people blame GV for their death when it was more their own fault and of course the Bolsheviks. I think she was a good person (with faults of course) who didn't try to hide who she was. I also like her intelligence and love of the arts--rare among most royals of that time it seems. I guess I just like the complex--Q. Victoria, Vicky, May, MIssy--often more than the more 'popular' choices (Q. Alexandra, MF) who certainly had as many faults but whose charms seem more superficial. But that's just me.  

Plus whose children actually seemed more messed-up:
Queen Alexandra--Eddy (backwards, unhealthy, coddled), George (gruff, reserved), Louise (diffident), Victoria (bitter, spiteful ) and Maud (pretty normal save for how thin she always strove to be). All of her children had a babyish, selfish (probably George the least) streak and weren't intellectually or culturally inclined at all. Plus she's the one who made Toria into a bitter old maid through her selfishness.

May--David (ok, he was a selfish narcissist), Bertie (nervous but dutiful & responsibly and good father), Henry (not too bright but again dutiful), George (complex but intelligent and charming), Mary (responsible and capable if possessed of her mother's shyness and reserve).

George and May's children on the whole ended up more productive in terms of public service whereas Alexandra used her children to compensate for Bertie's running-around and stunted their growth.

Oh,Ella,thanks for your opinion on Queen Mary! I agree with you - she was a complex person.For me the same is with Grand Duchess Maria Pavlovna-junior..I read at other thread some uncomplimentary comments on MP-jr..But I like her,she was a fighter. Her childhood was sad,she was forced to marry a man she did not love,she tried to learn more in this life,she worked...she tried  to be independent from  others opinions..I do not myself incline to idolize or adore popular charming beauties such as Queen Alexandra and her sister Empress Maria.
They were charming but...as I read in some book on King Edward VII "Queen Alexandra was a woman,who charmed at first and dissappointed at further  contacts".

And as for Queen Mary:Edward VIII with his inferiority complex slandered much his mother.

[bluetoria]

I know very little about Edward VIII (I stop being interested after 1918!) but it does make you wonder where his inferiority complex came from...was it is his upbringing? His parents?
As for Queen Alexandra, from some of her quotations it does seem she had a very cutting side as in her cruel comments about poor Thora (Schleswig-Holstein/Christian); and her treatment of her own children - especially Toria - seems incredibly stifling...but it could be that she 'disappointed at further contacts' because of her deafness which could perhaps have made her appear uninteresting just because she didn't really know what was being said. It must be difficult enough with hearing imapriment trying to make sense of what is being said in your native language, let alone a foreign one. Perhaps.

[grandduchessella]

I don't doubt that her hearing was a definite factor in some of her withdrawal from her husband and much of the faster society he enjoyed. QV has written on this. But the fact remains that none of the children of Christian & Louise really prized education. They were well brought-up and schooled in the 'important' things but Vicky, when 'scouting out' Alexandra for QV, despaired of the intellectual qualities of the family. Now Vicky could be over-intellectual by the royal standards of the day, but it's a theme heard over and over--that the family was fairly juvenile and not too clever but charming, fun and attractive.

This is something that Alexandra passed on to her children and Bertie, who never enjoyed the schoolroom, wasn't inclined to insist on anything further. George and Maud were probably the brightest of the children but even they couldn't be described as intellectuals by any stretch of the imagination.

Alexandra had a darker side to her character no doubt--her stifling of her daughters and their potential romances, her babying of all the children and the resultant effect on their behavior and psyche, her cloying attachment to her sons in the face of her husband's infidelities (not too much fun for Queen Mary, esp in the early days of her marriage), her cutting comments about a lot of people and the childishness she could display in foreign matters (almost causing an international incident by snubbing either a German royal or statesman--giving the 'cut direct' as they used to say at some high-profile event).

As for EVIII--who knows what/where/when things went wrong for him. His father certainly didn't have a high opinion of him but what came first, the chicken or the egg? Did his low opinion come from his behavior or was it the source of much of it, or did it eventually just become a vicious circle? He has to be one of my LEAST favorite royals. Blech.

[bluetoria]

I do not find Alexandra very interesting - perhaps because she always comes across as quite a shallow person and certainly cannot be compared with QV's amazingly gifted daughters (well some of them!) I do, however, feel a bit of sympathy for her and admire the dignified manner in which she dealt with Bertie's infidelities (it could be argued she had no option in those days...but she didn't sulk or whatever as other princesses have done!). Perhaps, as you say with their lack of emphasis on education, the whole of the Danish RF at the time was quite childish (Toria hated it didn't she...and Bertie was bored stiff) but nonetheless, as a QUEEN rather than a mother, I think Alexandra played her part extremely well.  

[grandduchessella]

Oh, as a Queen she was wonderful--and as a public figure. She had a unique knack for connecting with the public. I've read comparisons between this Princess of Wales and Diana. The public adoration, the fashion trendsetting, the unfaithful husband (handled that differently!), the mother who had so many warm qualities but also a rather smothering effect on her children, the connection with the poor and disenfranchised of society, not really inclined towards the intelletual, etc... I always loved the stories of Alexandra visiting the war wounded and showing how she could swing her own stiff leg (a result of typhoid fever) over a chair and unflinchingly visiting the Elephant Man when so many turned away in horror.

[bluetoria]

Alright, while I do not think that wronged wives should have to endure empty marriages, I DO believe that if Diana was so desperately unhappy & disappointed in Charles, she could have handled it with far greater dignity. To make an appearance on a television programme describing all the wrongs she suffered seems to me totally lacking in self-respect. Would YOU appear on T.V. to 'wash your dirty linen in public'? And then to have a book piblished about it?
Everyone knew what a wrong wife Alexandra was...(just as everyone knew about Charles & Camilla) and she won public sympathy because she remained dignified. Diana would have appeared far more dignified if she simply slipped away from him...lived separately, divorced is she wanted but without  and  I DO think she damaged the image of the monarchy and her own image by the public show of unhappiness - the sulking on camera, the pose in front of the Taj Mahal, the miserable faces when she was sitting next to him. It wasn't necessary. We KNEW she was unhappy. I would have admired her a good deal more if she had done what other people do when they are suffering from domestic unhappiness. When you go to work, you have to conceal your personal problems & get on with your job (particularly if your job is a service)...Her job was to carry out her duties professionally...like Alexandra did.
Personally, I think she did a great deal of good then ruined it by that undignified display.  

[Alicky1872]

I think Louise was the spitting image of her mother, seen here:-

Louise (nee Princess of the Netherlands)


and here's Louise's father

Charles XV of Sweden

Does anyone know more about her parents, and her relationship with them?

[PrinceEddy1864]

Thanks for posting those pictures of Louise's parents Alicky. I had seen several images of her mother but not really any good photos of her father. You are certainly correct that she looked 100% like her mother, who wasnt really much to look at either.

[Martyn]

Well Bluetoria, you have made your opinions about Diana quite clear and not wishing to go off-topic, I will simply say that I disagree with you. UTTERLY.
I will however agree that Alix handled her husband's indiscretions admirably, confident that' he always loved me best'.
I have to add that Louise of Sweden may have been boring, but in that photo she looks utterly bored herself!

[bluetoria]

Okay, I stand correected & withdraw my views!

[grandduchessella]

And on the whole, I have to say that Bertie and Alix seem to have more character than George and May (whose diaries are breathtakingly mundane), more colour and flair and that is perhaps why they appeal to me.  Just my opinion......

And you are certainly entitled to it.   I think this is probably the only time our opinions have diverged. I certainly agree that G&M's children were 'messed up' but feel that Bertie & Alix escape relatively unscathed whereas the other 2 are constantly roasted. Plus I always am somewhat skeptical since all the worst stuff--including the 'afraid of my father' comment--seems to come from EVIII. Others write that they were stiff but the really horrid stuff doesn't seem to be true. The horrible nurse story was discredited by Charlotte Zeepvat who just checked who was employed when and realized events didn't match up yet it still lingers to show how uninvolved they were as parents. I also doubt GV was afraid of EVII--who was ever afraid of Bertie? I also think that Alix's diaries (if she even kept one!) would be horribly boring--I don't think May's excerpts are that bad, she had much more interest in the world around her. Now comparing EVII and GV's diaries would be different.   I think Alix due to her charm, beauty and grace is dealt with softer than May who was serious, dutiful and regal.