Author Topic: Commissar Pankratov and Maria  (Read 8523 times)

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Sunny

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Commissar Pankratov and Maria
« on: February 20, 2012, 08:18:49 AM »
I didn't find a specific thread on this, or even on Pankratov himself, and I was having interesting reflection on him, so thought of start a new thread.

Reading the letters of IF during separation (the ones in le tsarevitch) i found this:

From NAM to OTAA
18 April/1st May  1918

[written by Maria] (...)Mama mocks me imiting Pankras's infatuation

The footnote says that Pankras stays for "Pankratov", the Commissar.

Then i found GD Ally's quote in an old thread:

Now I´m going to try and translate into English a Czech text from 1930:

Elizaveta Ersbergova: "Pankratov was good, honest and decent man. All at all he treated them nicely and one could notice he pitied them. He was especially fond of Maria Nikolaevna. Once she fell and hit into her eye. As soon as he heard that, he hurried along and was obviously very concerned..."

This seemed to me quite ineteresting. Commissar Pankratov liked Maria and in the family this became a source for mocking her (and from AF herself!!)
i thought this could be a nice source for a discussion!


Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Commissar Pankratov and Maria
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2012, 01:14:42 PM »
I didn't find a specific thread on this, or even on Pankratov himself, and I was having interesting reflection on him, so thought of start a new thread.

Reading the letters of IF during separation (the ones in le tsarevitch) i found this:

From NAM to OTAA
18 April/1st May  1918

[written by Maria] (...)Mama mocks me imiting Pankras's infatuation

The footnote says that Pankras stays for "Pankratov", the Commissar.

Then i found GD Ally's quote in an old thread:

Now I´m going to try and translate into English a Czech text from 1930:

Elizaveta Ersbergova: "Pankratov was good, honest and decent man. All at all he treated them nicely and one could notice he pitied them. He was especially fond of Maria Nikolaevna. Once she fell and hit into her eye. As soon as he heard that, he hurried along and was obviously very concerned..."

This seemed to me quite ineteresting. Commissar Pankratov liked Maria and in the family this became a source for mocking her (and from AF herself!!)
i thought this could be a nice source for a discussion!



Well, since we have, for some time now, felt that something needed to be said about Pankratov and his "memoirs", we welcome the opportunity to discuss the different aspects of his tenure as commissar in Tobolsk.

But first let's deal with the quote from Grand Duchess Maria Nicholaevna's letter from Ekaterinburg, as given above: "Mama mocks me imiting Pankras's infatuation".

Among the letters featured in Princess Eugenie's book, this particular one is not in her possession, but is located in the Beinecke Library at Yale — the same place which holds A. A. Vyrubova's photo albums — thus, we happen to have a copy of the original Russian text.

Now, everyone present in Tobolsk agreed that Pankrantov had a soft spot for Grand Duchess Maria Nicholaevna. But the above quote needs to be properly translated and seen in context

"Mock" is too strong for what was meant here; "tease" better conveys the tone of what the Empress was doing.

(Note that in that same letter, Tsar Nicholas II wrote: "I am very sad without you, my dear Nastaska. We miss the faces you would make while at the table."!)

What Grand Duchess Maria Nicholaevna actually wrote here concerning herself was:

"...Мама Машку дразнитъ съ удачнымъ повторенiемъ увлеченiемъ Pankras, но это вже нема опять."

Now, "увлеченiе" can mean to be infatuated with, to have a crush on someone, or indicate the object of one's infatuation, but it generally means: enthusiasm, passion for (as in, "his passion is fly-fishing"), animation, etc.

The Empress was definitely teasing Grand Duchess Maria Nicholaevna concerning Pankratov, but it was playful banter, not mockery.

Literally: "Mama [the Empress] teases Mashka [G.D. Maria herself] with an apt repetition of Pankras' enthusiasm/animation/passion, but that is already no more."

[At this point everything is appearing in italics without my wishing it, and I cannot shut it off. IN]

That last phrase may reflect Pankratov's own coloquial speech. Thus, it would seem that the Empress was teasing her daughter by imitatiing Pankratov's way of speaking or mannerisms, and Grand Duchess Maria Nicholaevna was, in turn, sharing that with her sisters back in Ekaterinburg, knowing that they would be amused by it too.

So a better translation of the whole phrase might be: "Mama teases Mashka with a very good imitation of Pankratov's animated way of speaking, but that already is no more."
(Perhaps that last phrase refers to Pankratov having been dismissed?)

Claudia Bitner, in her depositon to Sokolov (See Ross, p. 424), recounted that the Grand Duchesses in Tobolsk laughed at receiving another such letter from Ekaterinburg informing them that "Mashka is having success / turning the heads/ of the commissars." (МашкѢ  везетъ на комиссаровъ")

After all, it was well known to the Family, retainers, and servants that Grand Duchess Maria Nicholaevna could be very charming, in an innocently flirtatious way.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 01:23:09 PM by Inok Nikolai »
инок Николай

Sunny

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Re: Commissar Pankratov and Maria
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 02:15:16 PM »
Thanks soooo much, Inok Nikolai!! Having the letter in French i couldn't really understand. You don't know how grateful i'm for this.

"Mock" is too strong for what was meant here; "tease" better conveys the tone of what the Empress was doing.

Oh, that's my fault. I'm sorry. I understand French very well, but English is not my mothertongue and i chose the wrong word to translate from French into English. Thanks for correcting, and most of all for providing the original russian which is even clearer to me than the French version.


That last phrase may reflect Pankratov's own coloquial speech. Thus, it would seem that the Empress was teasing her daughter by imitatiing Pankratov's way of speaking or mannerisms, and Grand Duchess Maria Nicholaevna was, in turn, sharing that with her sisters back in Ekaterinburg, knowing that they would be amused by it too.

So a better translation of the whole phrase might be: "Mama teases Mashka with a very good imitation of Pankratov's animated way of speaking, but that already is no more."
(Perhaps that last phrase refers to Pankratov having been dismissed?)


That is really very interesting and confirms what we were saying in another thread: alas the French translation is not so good. Thanks again for providing a much better one.
I am very interested in this tidbit of letter. First, because it gives us a hint of a fun - loving side of AF that most often forget; secondly, because it confirms what, as you said, we already know, that is Maria's charm. Since i'm writing about this period of the IF life, I had in mind a scene with AF teasing Marija like she herself tells her sisters, and your clarification helped me a lot.
Moreover, i did not know that Klavdia Bitner lefet depositions. I'm going to have a look for them immediately!

Rodney_G.

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Re: Commissar Pankratov and Maria
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 03:58:08 PM »
Looking at the Russian in the original , it seems odd that Maria would refer to herself by name (Mashka) rather than say "me", as in "Mama teases me." Am I reading this right?

Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Commissar Pankratov and Maria
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 05:01:25 PM »
Looking at the Russian in the original , it seems odd that Maria would refer to herself by name (Mashka) rather than say "me", as in "Mama teases me." Am I reading this right?

Well, yes, she wrote of herself in the third person. People do that sometimes for various reasons. Here it just seems to be an added element of humor. I don't think it was meant secretively.

In any regards, that is what she wrote — it's thus in the original Russian letter at Yale.
инок Николай

Sunny

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Re: Commissar Pankratov and Maria
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2012, 09:25:16 AM »
Looking at the Russian in the original , it seems odd that Maria would refer to herself by name (Mashka) rather than say "me", as in "Mama teases me." Am I reading this right?

Well, yes, she wrote of herself in the third person. People do that sometimes for various reasons. Here it just seems to be an added element of humor. I don't think it was meant secretively.

In any regards, that is what she wrote — it's thus in the original Russian letter at Yale.

Obviously i'm now looking for it on the Yale site.

Sunny

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Re: Commissar Pankratov and Maria
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 09:55:58 AM »
Looking at the Russian in the original , it seems odd that Maria would refer to herself by name (Mashka) rather than say "me", as in "Mama teases me." Am I reading this right?

Well, yes, she wrote of herself in the third person. People do that sometimes for various reasons. Here it just seems to be an added element of humor. I don't think it was meant secretively.

In any regards, that is what she wrote — it's thus in the original Russian letter at Yale.

Obviously i'm now looking for it on the Yale site.

It seems i can't see it online. Do you know if it's possible to have the russian text of the letter?

Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Commissar Pankratov and Maria
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2012, 08:10:37 AM »

Obviously i'm now looking for it on the Yale site.


It seems i can't see it online. Do you know if it's possible to have the russian text of the letter?

Well, here's the story on that:

As you all know, the Beinecke Library at Yale put A. A. Vyrubova's photo albums on line several years ago.

However, they have not uploaded copies of the letters from the Imperial family to Vyrubova and Dehn, which they also have in their collection.
(I am not even certain that the letters have been digitalized.)

The letters have been photocopied, and the originals have been put away. To view those photocopies of the letters, one has to visit Yale (or reach an agreement with them to have copies made).

As is the practice in most archives, Yale and the Beinecke Library require that its patrons sign an agreement that they will not share photocopies of the actual letters with others.
(Actually, each sheet of Yale's custom-made photocopy paper has a statement to that effect printed on the back.)

Thus, we have permission to translate and publish the letters, but not to distribute copies of the originals further.
So, we cannot give anyone copies of the letters themselves, or post them, but we can share with others some excerpts from our English translation.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 08:15:27 AM by Inok Nikolai »
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Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Commissar Pankratov and Maria
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2012, 08:46:16 AM »
Thanks soooo much, Inok Nikolai!! Having the letter in French i couldn't really understand. You don't know how grateful i'm for this.


Well, actually, we are beholden to you for giving us this opportunity to discuss Pankratov.

All those members of the suite who survived Tobolsk and Ekaterinburg agreed that Commissar Pankratov was a half-decent person, if somewhat of a fanatical, theoretical revolutionary.

Kobylinsky, Bitner and others considered him well-intentioned, for the most part.

But one must distinguish between the Pankratov of their accounts in 1918, and the Pankratov writing his memoirs in Soviet Russia in 1925.

By the time Pankratov wrote his memoirs, he was pretty much free to say anything he wanted. Who, among those still found in Russia who had known the Imperial family, would have come forward in 1925 to publically refute Pankratov or to defend the memory of the Imperial family? It would have been futile and suicidal to attempt such a thing.

But it is disconcerting to see his memoirs now being translated, printed, and quoted, with no editorial comments or sober evaluation of what he records.

In contrast, S. Melgunov, in his Sudba Imperatora Nikolaia Posle Otrecheniia (The Fate of Emperor Nicholas II After His Abdication, pp. 220-222), discusses Pankratov's later perception of his former time in Tobolsk.

In general, in his books S. Melgunov contrasts what many participants in the Revolution later wrote in their memoirs with what they actually said and did at the time.
It makes for some very interesting, and, at times, amusing reading. It's a shame that his books have not been translated into English.
Melgunov, being a liberal socialist, cannot be suspected of monarchist sympathies, although he is fair to Nicholas II and the old regime.

(I realize that elsewhere on this forum "Zvezda" has expressed his/her critical opinion of Melgunov, but I do not share that evaluation of the man.)

Of course, Pankratov (and all the other jailers of the Imperial family) never dreamed that one day the world would all be able to read the Imperial family's diaries and letters, and thus learn their true opinion of these memoirists!

Some of the questionable statements made by Pankratov in his 1925 account:

— Pankratov's glowing account of how warmly he was accepted by the Imperial family, as opposed to their own comments in their diaries and letters

In his diary entry for Sept. 29, 1917, Tsar Nicholas II called Pankratov a scoundrel for not allowing them to walk outside their compound, even after having received permission from Kerensky.

On October 5, he wrote that it was Pankratov's obstinancy that was keeping them from going to church.

— Concerning the Empress' command of Russian, Pankratov wrote: "Alexandra Fedorovna pronounced Russian words with a heavy accent, and it was noticebale that speaking Russian was hard for her ...[she] pronounced each phrase with difficulty, and with a German accent — just like a foreigner who had learned the Russian language from books, and not from practice."
 (But see: http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=1314.msg501358#msg501358)

— Alexandra Feodorovna and her children never wrote to Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna.
But there exist at least ten letters from them written to her from captivity.

— the Imperial children's lack of exposure to the classics of Russian literature. Their letters and diary entries prove otherwise.
(Claudia Bitner did comment to Sokolov that the younger two children's education was wanting in some respects, but she did not make the sweeping statements attributed to her by Pankratov in his memoirs.)

— Pankratov even claims that the Imperial family was so taken with him as a lecturer that they proposed that he help tutor the Imperial children!

— He also claims that the Imperial family definitely did not want him to leave when the soldiers expelled him.
But on Feb. 20, 1918, Tsar Nicholas wrote to his mother:
“The man who was over us here [Pankratov], has been at last removed away by our soldiers. We have only got our dear colonel [Kobylinsky], who came here with us."


This is not to say that there is nothing credible in Pankratov's account, but his memoirs (like most, if not all, such recollections) should be read with discretion, and not simply taken at face value.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 08:50:32 AM by Inok Nikolai »
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Offline Inok Nikolai

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Re: Commissar Pankratov and Maria
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2012, 08:23:25 PM »


That is really very interesting and confirms what we were saying in another thread: alas the French translation is not so good. Thanks again for providing a much better one.

Yes, and look at the rest of that sentence in the French translation (p. 264 in Princess Eugenie's book).
It's a prime example of why we need the original Russian texts in order to obtain a faithful English translation of those eighteen letters.

In Russian, that sentence has five more words: но это вже нема опять.

In French, Princess Eugenie's translator rendered that as twelve words: mais tout cela malgré tout est de nouveau de la "petite paille".

And the translator had misread the handwritten Russian. He took the Little Russian / Ukrainian word "нема" (nema) to be "пела" (pela).

"Нема" means "not"; whereas "пела" is the feminine, singular, past tense of the verb "to sing" — i.e., "she was singing" or "she sang".

So, basing herself on that erroneous reading, Princess Eugenie then launched into a lengthy and convoluted explanation (footnote 4) in an attempt to 'decipher' the real meaning of that 'cryptic' passage.

Unfortunately, such a translation error is not an isolated occurrence in the book.
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Offline blessOTMA

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Re: Commissar Pankratov and Maria
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2012, 12:50:05 AM »
Inok Nikolai , I really cannot wait for the book of the family's letters AND its notes!
Quote
"Mock" is too strong for what was meant here; "tease" better conveys the tone of what the Empress was doing.
I imagine a good deal of such teasing went on over the girl's officer crushes...this is seems more of the same

"Give my love to all who remember me."

  Olga Nikolaevna

Sunny

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Re: Commissar Pankratov and Maria
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 12:51:15 AM »
Thanks for every info, Inok Nikolai. I hoped the photocopies of the letter had been digitalized.
So i'm waiting for your book!