Did GD Olga have more 'insight' than the rest of the family?

[Vanya Ivanova]

There are two existing threads that deal with this in part but don't answer what I'm specifically looking for. I'd really really appreciate any help that can be given with this please.

The first is the 'Olga's pistol' thread.

The main source for this being this sites founder Bob A's quote about his meeting with a high ranking Russian Official:

''Once when I met Vladimir Soloviev, the Attorney General of Russia and the head of the committee on the investigation of the remains he showed me the Sokolov dossier that Stalin had - I have mentioned that meeting before.  Afterwards we had a long talk about what he had found in his research through unpublished materials.  I asked him if he could tell me somethings he had learned about the members of the family that surprized him.  One thing he told me was the story of the small gun Olga carried.  He said, if I remember correctly but this could be wrong, she had it in her boot and she had been given the gun by her father.  He said Koblynski begged Olga to give it to him in Tobolsk.  Later I found this in writing - but I haven't been able to relocate it.''

Other people also refer to this written source but no one seems to find it. Am I correct in thinking that Soloviev's testimony is the only western source then to verify that Olga had a small gun in captivity?

I want to discover if there is actually any truth/merit in saying that GD Olga had any more insight as to the danger the family where in than her parents and siblings as is sometimes claimed. I have learnt from this forum the value of perpective and the difficulties with source materials that require translation from the original language.

Its important therefore to try as much as possible to discount our 'post mortem' perspective and interpret in this instance GD Olga's signs of stress and depression from the lazeret period onwards from the viewpoint of the time when the family's fate was far from certain.

So, does anyone have any quotes/evidence to further support Soloviev's claim? and does anyone have letters or quotes from GD Olga during this period that show that she was actually afraid?

many thanks

Thea

[Sarushka]

Am I correct in thinking that Soloviev's testimony is the only western source then to verify that Olga had a small gun in captivity?

To my knowledge, yes, that is correct.

So, does anyone have any quotes/evidence to further support Soloviev's claim? and does anyone have letters or quotes from GD Olga during this period that show that she was actually afraid?

The closest thing I can think of are Buxhoeveden's recollections of Olga in Tobolsk and during their transfer to Ekaterinburg:

"The young people seemed cheerful enough, but the two elder realised how serious things were becoming. The Grand Duchess Olga told me [presumably in a letter, as Buxhoeveden was not permitted into the governor's house at this time] that they put on brave faces for their parents' sake. The younger children did not realise their danger, and the Grand Duchess Marie said once to Mr. Gibbes, in the early days of their stay, that she would be quite content to remain for ever in Tobolsk!" ~The Life and Tragedy of Alexandra Feodorovna

"Olga Nicolaevna had also greatly changed. The suspense and anxiety of her parents' absence, and the responsibility she bore when left as head of the house with her sick brother to look after, had changed the lovely, bright girl of twenty-two into a faded and sad middle-aged woman. She was the only one of the young girls who acutely realised the danger that their parents were in." ~Left Behind

IMO, these observations do not indicate that Olga's perception was unusually sharp -- rather, they show that her siblings were woefully ignorant of the situation. After all, it's not a leap of intellect to realize that deposed rulers may not fare well during a hostile revolution.


These quotes from Gilliard are often used to prove Olga's alleged brilliance:

"The eldest, Olga Nicolaievna, possessed a remarkably quick brain She had good reasoning powers as well as initiative, a very independent manner, and a gift for swift and entertaining repartee."

"She picked up everything extremely quickly, and always managed to give an original turn to what she learned."

"With the exception of Olga Nicolaievna, the Grand-Duchesses were very moderate pupils."
 

However, his complete thoughts on the matter are rarely given:

"Olga Nicolaievna did not fulfil the hopes I had set upon her. Her fine intellect failed to find the elements necessary to its development. Instead of making progress she began to go back."

(All Gilliard's quotes are from Thirteen Years at the Russian Court.)

[Kalafrana]

I wouldn't say that Gilliard's words suggest that Olga had particular brilliance, merely that she was the only one of the four with a good brain, as distinct from being a very moderate pupil.

Ann

[Vanya Ivanova]

thanks for the quotes they are really helpful.

I have looked at descriptions from Anna Vyrubova, Sidney Gibbs, Lili Dehn and Gleb Botkin and the consensus seems to be that GD Olga was particularly quick to grasp ideas and was an intelligent kind hearted if sometimes lazy and bad tempered person.

Anna Vyrubova remembered Olga as „perhaps the cleverest of them all, her mind being so quick to grasp ideas, so absorbent of knowledge that she learned almost without application or close study.

According to Gibbes she was "hot-tempered but did not bear grudges. She had her father's heart, but lacked his consistency. Her manners were harsh. She was well-educated and mature intellectually

Gleb Botkin stated ''She (Olga) was by nature a thinker and as it later seemed to me, understood the general situation better than any member of her family, including even her parents. At least I had the impression that she had little illusions in regard to what the future held in store for them, and in consequence was often sad and worried. But there was a sweetness about her which prevented her from affecting anybody in a depressing manner, even when she herself felt depressed."

One incident where GD Olga did show fear is from Lili Dehn:

On March 13th, when the rebels from near Petersburg came to Tsarskoe Selo, she only heard several shots. When she asked Lily Dehn what the noise signified, Lily said: „Darling, I don't know - it's nothing. The hard frost makes everything sound much more.“ „But are you sure, Lili?" asked anxiously the Grand Duchess. „Even Mamma seems nervous, we're so worried about her heart; she's most certainly overtiring herself - do ask her to rest.“

The most interesting quote I have found IMO is one from a letter the Tsar wrote to the Empress from Mogilev 27/04/16

'' I enclose a letter from Olga, which can you please send back to me. Poor girl, it is natural that she worries; so long has she she kept her feelings back-that she has to let them out and craves for real personal happiness which she has not had''.

This is not exhaustive of course but it only shows that GD Olga was sensitive and intelligent but also as early as 1916 unhappy and worried. For me the Soloviev testimony is of course very compelling but its not unequivocal proof and so therefore is problematic and for me the only evidence that Olga was more scared and worried by the situation than the others.

Like the 'birthday cake' incident with GD Maria which when you start digging you find there isnt one first hand testimony only 2nd and 3rd hand references to very little, Olga's pistol is a bit of a mirage.
I think that because the Gd's studiously destroyed their diaries and more personal letters we are left with very mundane, trite evidence in their own hand; went for walk, sunny weather etc. Like Margot Frank who also apparently kept a diary the merits and insights these young women did or didn't have is just something we will never know.

[Vanya Ivanova]

Apologies my last post was very muddled and descended into melodrama!

quote from Sarushka : ''IMO, these observations do not indicate that Olga's perception was unusually sharp -- rather, they show that her siblings were woefully ignorant of the situation. After all, it's not a leap of intellect to realize that deposed rulers may not fare well during a hostile revolution.''

Could this 'ignorance' be down to the fact that all of the family's letters/diaries were subject to at least the possibility of censorship which they were aware of and so that may account for their seeming lack of awareness or desire to discuss any fears they may have had? Certainly in this respect I have not been able to find anything in GD Olga's own hand that suggests anxiety or fear.

Also its fair to state that until the Bolsheviks took over how much danger they were actually in is debatable. I think I'm correct in stating Kerensky left no record of a desire to execute or menace the Imperial family rather that they were merely an 'inconvenience' not a political threat. Their relatively good treatment under the Provisional Goverment could it might be fair to say have lulled them into a sense of security. Its even not totally clear if Lenin intended to murder them, ultimately I think Im correct in stating the Ural Soviet took it upon themselves to do that without clear 'permission'.

The censorship issue IMO means all we really have to go on are witnesses impressions. Certainly more than one witness states that the situation seemed to have had a more marked effect on GD Olga as already stated and that to them she seemed the most aware of the danger. These mainly being Baroness Buxhoeveden and Gleb Botkin. Both are 'problematic' witnesses in many ways especially Gleb Botkin as he had very little contact with GD's. However I don't see that it can just be dismissed completely.

More than one observer also states that GD Olga took an interest in outside events and had long discussions with her father in his study after the abdication. Again more than one observer had the impression she was 'quick to grasp ideas' whatever her later academic application may have been.

Therefore my overall impression at this stage is that GD Olga was certainly the least able to cope with the situation and if its safe to extrapolate on the veracity of the 'pistol' story most certainly the most afraid. Its really difficult to translate that into 'insight' though as that denotes 'prescience' of some kind that was only validated by later events. Also, in my opinion we really just don't know the level of awareness of her siblings as they may just have been more able to 'put on a brave face'.

Again I'd really like to know what other people think of this.

[Sarushka]

Therefore my overall impression at this stage is that GD Olga was certainly the least able to cope with the situation and if its safe to extrapolate on the veracity of the 'pistol' story most certainly the most afraid. Its really difficult to translate that into 'insight' though as that denotes 'prescience' of some kind that was only validated by later events.

A very good summation, IMO. And I agree that until the Bolsheviks seized power the Romanovs' situation was not particularly dire.

I personally do not recall ever seeing anything directly attributable to Olga that indicates her level of fear/perception. All we have to go on are others' assessments of her state of mind.

[blessOTMA]

Well  the poem about being at the mouth of a grave found in Olga's hand writing seems to indicate a firm idea  of what's to come. Wasn't it during  the trip on the Rus that  they told Isa they put on a brave face  for thier parent's sake , so  knows what any of them  actually thought about thier situation at that point .( besides knowing a false front was called for )  They were just trying to get though it.

If one is to believe Meriel Buchanan, while on the Rus  Olga told Isa they were lucky to still be alive and to be able to see thier parents again whatever may come.....That's  a pretty savvy summing up of the situation if you ask me. 

Olga Nicolaevna had also greatly changed. The suspense and anxiety of her parents' absence, and the responsibility she bore when left as head of the house with her sick brother to look after, had changed the lovely, bright girl of twenty-two into a faded and sad middle-aged woman. She was the only one of the young girls who acutely realised the danger that their parents were in." ~Left Behind

I believe the series of arsenic shots Olga received in 1916 has to be remembered when the looking like a middle age woman quote comes up. She was also described as "skin and bones "  near the end. When you described like that when someone as thin as  TN is about, that's  significant . I think it wasn't just the stress, ( though where was plenty of that and for years by this time )  ...but also the poisoning effect of the  arsenic, that took a toll on her health generally by this time ..and greatly. Olga  joins, and spends most of her time, with the always ill part of the family...Alexis and her mother, during this time , because imo, by now she's physically  ill herself.

[Sunny]

Even if Olga was really fearful and worried, i don't find it surprising. IMHO being the eldest child is not easy - you can surely remember that AF often wrote to Olga reminded her to always be an example for her siblings. I find this a real source for stress, fear and worry. If you think you should be an example, everything becomes heavier.
As far as i'm personally concerned, i come from a very strict family, and my mother very much reminds me of AF. Strict, stressing on the big values she believes in, always worried that her daughter are well educated. In my experience, the result was that i'm maybe even too much polite and nice, always fearing that people can think i'm rude, and,most of all, i worry and become agitated for everything.
I lived in a family where the mother suffered from some nameless illness that cameout just when she was home, the father was heart patient and the grandma old and tired.
I was the only one who could try to maintain balance and mental sanity in the family; i HAD to be responsible, but this took its toll on me,and this toll is anxiety.
I wrote all this because i don't find surprisingthat Olga was worried. AF was haunted by her "illness", Aleksej was cronically ill and anxiety could be breathed wherever they (Al and AF) were. OTMA had to be strong, and to care of everything so that thingscould just carry on, IMHO. And if MN and AN were younger and maybe careless, ON andTN couldn't help not to worry. And ONwas just more sensitive that TN. Or maybe, being the eldest took its tall.
But this is just my opinion.

[Vanya Ivanova]

I think thats a really interesting point to raise Sunny, that as the eldest GD Olga was under more pressure and certainly the Empress's letters to her eldest daughter have more out right criticism than I've found in her letters to the rest of the family. The Empress also seems to complain of GD Olga's behaviour more in her letters to the Tsar.

Thanks so much for all the posts, they have really helped me to understand this aspect of the events. As more than one contemporary observer had the impression GD Olga understood the gravity of the situation more than the rest of the family I have to conclude that this is indeed 'evidence' that this was the case to some extent. Of course its not conclusive though.

Owing to more than 70 years of deliberate secrecy and silence about the family by the Soviet authorities events that should be straightforward for historians to recover are still sketchy at best. Its as if the palisade around the Ipatiev House is in many ways still there.

In terms of conclusive evidence of insight into their ultimate fate the only unequivocal item we have is Doctor Botkin's unfinished letter to his brother. BlessOTMA's point about GD Olga's use of religious quotes (gates of the tomb etc) when taken in connection with the witnesses inpressions again does further support the view that GD Olga did appear to understand the gravity of the situation. The difficulty however is still was that more so than the others? Contemporary eye witnesses certainly thought so and as far as I'm aware the rest of family certainly have not left much in the way of evidence to contradict this.

If anyone has any quotes or anecdotes from other members of the family that also suggest they understood the danger then I would very much appreciate it if you could post them. I read a very thought provoking article recently that suggested that the Tsar and Empress's seemingly calm acceptance of their imprisonment was in part due to their both being effectively sedated for various medical complaints. I don't know enough about this to comment really and I will try to post a link, its an interesting perspective though.

many thanks

Thea

[Kalafrana]

Being a first-born with a sickly brother (asthma and eczema), I would also agree with what Sunny has to say.

First-borns are expected to be responsible and sensible, and 'useful'. They frequently get dumped on. The perfect example with Olga is the occasion when she was put in charge of Alexei at a lunch with visitors and was the one in trouble when Alexei played up.

Ann

[Sunny]

Being a first-born with a sickly brother (asthma and eczema), I would also agree with what Sunny has to say.

First-borns are expected to be responsible and sensible, and 'useful'. They frequently get dumped on. The perfect example with Olga is the occasion when she was put in charge of Alexei at a lunch with visitors and was the one in trouble when Alexei played up.

Ann

In writing my post i also thought of my husband; he's the middle child but his sister was so older that she married when he was still a little boy, so he was in fact educated as the first born and was in charge of his brother. Still now, that my husband is 30 and his brother 26 (!!) so both responsible grown up men, every time my brother in law doesn't pass exams or doesn't study or stuff like this, my father in law calls my husband and shouts: "You've not given him a good example!" or something like this... even if we've been married for 2 years and live 60 kms away, so what my brother in law does now, is no longer my husband's concern. But still.
This is not only because my husband is older, but also because my brother in law seems that kind of guy who could die of depression if you don't lethim do what he wants - noyt so far aways from being ill&spoiled, uh?
That was what i thought of when i thought about the way in which Olga was raised, IMHO.

[Kalafrana]

At risk of being jumped on by the moderators, first-borns are also the ones expected to take responsibility for aged parents. An extreme case involves two of my cousins. The elder (a sober, sensible chap who was once a house captain at Gordonstoun), devoted much time and effort to his rather difficult old father (and got a fair amount of grief from him), while his brother disappeared to New Zealand!

Ann

[JamesAPrattIII]

From what I have know of the woman she did read the newspapers ect of the period. There was no censorship from 1906 and limted milary censorship during WW I. So by reading them Olga knew that many people hated her parents and there country was in meltdown from 1914. She was also old enough to remember the 1905 revolution. During her hospital work she met people from the lower classes ect who told her how bad things were for them. Olga also met many army officers who told her about the conditions at the front. so we can say she knew the actual state of the country during the war. Olga also was close to her father and they probably discussed how things were in the country. Rasputins murder clearly shocked her and know doubt she was worried one or both of her parents would be next. This is most likely why the Alexander Palace felt like a house in morning to the people who visited it in early 1917. it was probably during this time period Nicholas gave Olga the pistol. She may have known about the coup plots against her parents in early 1917. They weren't a big secret. One can understand why Nicolas abdicated. As for Olga she does look happy in a couple of the post abdication photos and was probably thinking that she and her family were going into exile for a year or two and then they were going to live at livadia ect. She probably realized that she and her family were going to be killed when the Bolos arrived at Tobolsk and took her parents  and sister away. i hope this is of some help.

[Sarushka]

From what I have know of the woman she did read the newspapers ect of the period. There was no censorship from 1906 and limted milary censorship during WW I. So by reading them Olga knew that many people hated her parents and there country was in meltdown from 1914. She was also old enough to remember the 1905 revolution. During her hospital work she met people from the lower classes ect who told her how bad things were for them. Olga also met many army officers who told her about the conditions at the front. so we can say she knew the actual state of the country during the war. Olga also was close to her father and they probably discussed how things were in the country. Rasputins murder clearly shocked her and know doubt she was worried one or both of her parents would be next. This is most likely why the Alexander Palace felt like a house in morning to the people who visited it in early 1917. it was probably during this time period Nicholas gave Olga the pistol. She may have known about the coup plots against her parents in early 1917. They weren't a big secret. One can understand why Nicolas abdicated. As for Olga she does look happy in a couple of the post abdication photos and was probably thinking that she and her family were going into exile for a year or two and then they were going to live at livadia ect. She probably realized that she and her family were going to be killed when the Bolos arrived at Tobolsk and took her parents  and sister away. i hope this is of some help.

Much of the same also applies to Tatiana -- access to newspapers, interaction with soldiers at the lazaret, shock at Rasputin's murder, etc -- yet she doesn't have the reputation for insight. Why not?

[edubs31]

Yes good call there...

Are we suggesting that Olga had more insight than a Tatiana because she had a better ability to process information? Sure she might have been the "smartest" and most "gifted" of the daughters but I don't see there being a vast gulf of comprehension and reasoning skills separating her from the pack. If she's smarter and more perceptive than, say, a Tatiana I'm compelled to think it's only marginally so.

They were also an extremely tight couple so I'd have to think they talked and exchanged a lot of information. Something like, "So Tatya in my walk with papa this afternoon he was telling me..." Followed by a "yes Olga mama was also telling me this morning..." How much was really left unsaid between the close knit Big Pair with nothing but time on their hands during imprisonment?

Just because one person worries more and ponders things more than another doesn't necessarily give them more insight. Olga may have been the "half empty" to Tatiana's "half full" and it's possible Tatiana willfully ignored certain ominous warnings knowing that things were out of her hands regardless. It just so happened, sadly, that half empty turned out to be correct...