Alexandra Feodorovna on Trial- What were her crimes as Empress of Russia?

[Vanya Ivanova]

Robert, I am so very sorry to hear of your loss, I wish you every solace at such a difficult time,

Thea

[Vanya Ivanova]

I set out to try to find out if the accusations that AF was guilty of political machinations that helped bring down the dynasty, specifically that she was entirely responsible for Nicholas II assuming personal command of the army and the entire ministerial 'merry go round' that occurred during the war, were justified or not.

In my analysis I have clearly shown that this was not the case and that when she did have a hand (which was not very often -only 7 out of 26 appointments and then only 3 directly herself) the outcome was actually positive.

Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolaevich was replaced for making factions in the Duma worse that in turn worsened the supply issues, and his disastrous military decisions that led to the fall of Warsaw and then Kovno in august 1915, (Nicholas II assumed command early September 1915).

I did not analyse if AF was a good mother or a nice person. I'm not demeaning those as topics, they are valid and very interesting and I'm sure if someone started the thread ' Was AF a good mother?' it would prove to be a very 'hot' topic. Its just my analysis did not deal with that.

I agree with Alixz that Gilliard, Buxhoeveden, Vyrubova etc are very problematic sources as they are very 'biased' and that is why I did not use them in my main analysis. I wish I had not made a reference to Gilliard afterwards in the ensuing discussion of AF's character.

Feodorovna, I agree with many of your points but I tried to show that the burden of Alexei did not send AF mad as has been asserted.

Ann, I agree that Victoria and Irene were eminently sensible and balanced individuals but Ella after GD Serge's death was in my opinion (very justifiably) unhinged. As I have stated before, what can one say about a 'Nun' who encourages and condones murder?

[Kalafrana]

'As I have stated before, what can one say about a 'Nun' who encourages and condones murder?'

I think we need to remember that Rasputin was regarded by Ella and many others as a national menace who was indirectly responsible for the deaths of over 2 million men, and that in the eyes of the killers and their supporters there was only one way to get rid of him. In my view it suggests that Ella wore her religious beliefs lightly when she chose, but not that she was unhinged.

Ann

[feodorovna]

I set out to try to find out if the accusations that AF was guilty of political machinations that helped bring down the dynasty, specifically that she was entirely responsible for Nicholas II assuming personal command of the army and the entire ministerial 'merry go round' that occurred during the war, were justified or not.

In my analysis I have clearly shown that this was not the case and that when she did have a hand (which was not very often -only 7 out of 26 appointments and then only 3 directly herself) the outcome was actually positive............

I did not analyse if AF was a good mother or a nice person. I'm not demeaning those as topics, they are valid and very interesting and I'm sure if someone started the thread ' Was AF a good mother?' it would prove to be a very 'hot' topic. Its just my analysis did not deal with that.................


Feodorovna, I agree with many of your points but I tried to show that the burden of Alexei did not send AF mad as has been asserted.

Ann, I agree that Victoria and Irene were eminently sensible and balanced individuals but Ella after GD Serge's death was in my opinion (very justifiably) unhinged. As I have stated before, what can one say about a 'Nun' who encourages and condones murder?

Vanya Ivanova, I concur with all you say and I'm delighted that your excellent research and analysis shows her as being innocent of what history would label her as guilty of.

I would like to clarify that whilst I was in no way suggesting that "the burden of Alexei" sent her mad, I DO feel that the possible burden of guilt and sense of responsibility which, I believe had been with her from childhood, MAY have been the cause of psychological breakdown. It is not impossible that she was a functioning depressive for most of her life.

[Vanya Ivanova]

Ann, how was Rasputin indirectly responsible for the deaths over 2 million Russians?

[Kalafrana]

Forgive me if my syntax was unclear, but what I said was that in the eyes of the killers and their supporters, Rasputin was indirectly responsible for the deaths of over 2 million Russian servicemen.

Whether he was or was not is not the point. He was the leading hate figure of the time and believed by many to be the cause of national disaster.

Remember that Lloyd George's election campaign in December 1918 included a pledge to 'Hang the Kaiser'.

Ann

[Vanya Ivanova]

Sorry Ann, I understand that it was 'their' (Ella and some of her contemporaries) perception, but what 2 million deaths where 'they' referring to?

I think it is 'the point' as that is the basis you are defending Ella on for encouraging/condoning Rasputin's murder. Therefore can you demonstrate that her belief that Rasputin was a 'National Disaster' and indirectly responsible for the deaths of 2 million servicemen as being accurate or reasonable?

[Kalafrana]

1) By the end of 1916 Russia had lost over 2 million servicemen.
2) These high losses and the various military defeats (particularly the East Prussian campaign and the gradual loss of territory in Poland), were attributed by many contemporaries to failings in government (in particular corruption and incompetence in the supply chain) as well as or instead of poor generalship.
3) You claim that Rasputin's influence in government, and over Alexandra, has been much exaggerated. However, this is not how contemporaries saw it. Even if contemporaries did misunderstand the position, nevertheless the perception that Rasputin, through Alexandra, controlled the government, was extremely bad for the monarchy.
4) Ella advised Alexandra to get rid of Rasputin. Whether this was because of Rasputin's actual influence, a mistaken perception as to the extent of his influence, or the damage caused to the monarchy by perceptions of his influence, is debatable.
5) Alexandra refused to listen.
6) The murder then took place. It is not clear, as far as I know, whether Ella knew of the plan beforehand. If she did not, she cannot have 'encouraged' the murder.
7) I suspect that a great many Russians reacted to the death of Rasputin as many in the world reacted to the killing of Osama bin Laden. Unpleasant, but simpler that way.

[Alixz]

I seem to remember that the aristocracy reacted favorably, but that the common man and woman were not so sure. They felt that someone of their station had become close to the monarchs and then paid for it with his life. I don't think that the common person knew enough about government and who or what was influencing it to think that Rasputin had to go.

Didn't Dmitri become very close to Ella and even Felix had been impressed with her divesting all of her "worldly goods" to help the poor.  Perhaps they had spoken to her and she picked up a common thread of discontent and possible planning and that might be one of the reasons that she went to Alix and told her to get rid of Rasputin.  Alix got rid of Ella instead.

[TimM]

Whether Ella knew or not about the plan to kill Rasputin, I don't imagine she was too broken up when she heard it had succeeded.

[Vanya Ivanova]

You are still stating that because that was their perception at the time they must have had justification for thinking it without demonstrating why.

Alexander Kerensky and many other left wing Duma politicians, the Vladimirovich branch of the Romanov family, GD Nicholas Mikailovich and a large section of the press attributed these supply problems, and heavy military losses firmly at Grand Duke Nicholas Nikolaevich's door and as my analysis shows that was an accurate and reasonable summation of events; ie  it was justifiable. Also it clearly shows not everyone at the time pointed the finger at Rasputin and AF just certain factions who have been shown to have deliberately engineered this perception.

Again, I have to ask what justification did those that you are defending, have to believe that it was Rasputin who was in actual fact indirectly responsible for these disasters and not the former Commander in chief, (directly responsible for the heavy losses in Poland that you speak of) and senior Duma Politicians (directly responsible for the supply issues)?

There was a great deal of hysteria about at that time that was not just accurate or justifiable. It was akin to the Salem witch trials in atmosphere, ie those doing the accusing were the most guilty.

Vladimir Sukhomlinov was hounded out of office for nothing more than GD Nicholas N disliked him and the press were then agitated to believed he was a spy because he was friends with a man who happended to have a german name 'Asthuller'. GD NN is shown to have instigated this myth. Subsequent investigation into these allegations have shown them to be absolutely unfounded and just plain spiteful hysteria.

However it was sufficient for the Minister of War to lose his job. This 'witch' hunt just like the one against Rasputin and AF was led by the Nikolaevich 'faction', who it has been clearly shown had good reason to want to shift the blame away from the former Commander in Chief. It has also been shown and should be remembered that GD N's popularity was deliberately engineered ( leafleting, postcards, the buying of good 'PR' stories in the press'. It was this personal marketing and playing of the press that got him the job in the first place. The reverance GD NN was held in baffled those I have mentioned above who constituted a signifcant and varied section of the society at the time.

As I have stated before, the appointment of the head of the Army medical department, Evdokimov, was attributed to AF with no justification whatsoever, and Rodzianko's stating AF didn't want 'Nicholas II to conduct a surprise visit to the Duma have also shown that members of this faction (Rodzianko and GD NN were very good friends and corresponded regularly), lied and deliberately spread slanderous untruths about AF and those associated with her.

Also ministers such as Polivanov and Khostov who were either sacked or passed over for promotion for clear reasons of personal culpability, were among those who also  'conveniently' chose to attribute blame for their downfall not on their own actions but make downright silly accusations about Rasputin and AF too.

Therefore it is a fair summation to state that AF was entirely justified in not listening to her understandably traumatised but nevertheless unhinged sister GD Ella, who had come to parrot the hysterical views of the regime's internal enemies. Internal enemies who were clearly responsible for the military disasters and supply issues, and were ultimately the real menace to the regime. Rasputin's murder being the culmination of these attacks.

[Vanya Ivanova]

In fairness to GD Ella I'm sure that her main motive was to warn and thereby try to protect her sister. The work she carried out also did a lot of good and is always to be commended.

[TimM]

I'm really enjoying your posts, Thea.  It is fascinating to read about all the stuff that was going on back then.

Of course, none of them knew, or could have known, what was coming, the Dark Age of the USSR.

[Kalafrana]

I think we have to concentrate on the perceptions of those who were around in 1916, who did not have the benefit of hindsight, nor necessarily knowledge of the wider picture.

Ella could see that Alexandra's association with Rasputin was bad for the monarchy, not necessarily because of realities but rather because of public perception. Therefore she advised her sister to get rid of him. When Rasputin was killed she wasn't particularly sorry.

I don't call that unhinged.

I have been thinking about Nicholas and Alexandra's attitude to Alexei. I have said before on other threads that a successful ruler needs to be able to subordinate family feeling to the interests of his monarchy. For example, in a Russian context, Alexander II, having lost his heir, promptly arranged for the new heir to marry his brother's fiancee. It worked all right. Leaving aside their personal feelings, there was no pressing need for Nicholas to father a son. He had a healthy brother (Mikhail), and plenty of uncles and male line cousins. Unlike, for example, his brother in law Ernst Ludwig, who was an only surviving son, neither of his uncles had issue, and, indeed, his dynasty died with his younger son. In my view, had Nicholas and Alexandra taken a realistic view, then after the birth of a third successive daughter, and the death of Georgy Alexandrovich, they would have accepted that a Plan B was needed, and started to train up Mikhail (then 21), as a possible successor and, in any event, support to the throne. When Alexei was finally born and proved to be haemophiliac, it was more than ever necessary that Mikhail be trained for possible succession. But, instead, Nicholas and Alexandra staked everything on Alexei, and their determination to preserve the autocracy was to a considerable extent based on an obsession with safeguarding 'Baby's' inheritance. To me (and I must declare that I am not a parent) this seems pretty unhinged.

[Vanya Ivanova]

Alexander Kerensky, the Vladimirovich branch of the Romanovs and Grand Duke Nicholas Mikailovich were all around in 1916, they saw the Nikolaevich branch and principly GD Nicholas Nikolaevich as the real problem, ( as did Rasputin and AF).

This, unlike those who agitated against Rasputin and AF was based on actual events as they saw them at the time, not hindsight, therefore this was a more balanced contemporary perception than that held by those who blamed Rasputin and AF for everything.

The evidence shows that many people saw the engineered agitation against Rasputin and AF for what it was at the time, an hysterical smeer campaign by those with a vested interest in deflecting blame away from themselves.

Those who looted and attacked Germans and German businesses ( or those with German sounding names) had a contemporary view, but it was hysterical and driven by a desire for revenge, just because they were there in 1916, doesn't mean what they got up to was justified and one cannot hold those with German ancestry or names responsible for these crimes against them, ie Rasputin and AF are not guilty just because they were victims of spiteful hysteria.