Carl Edward (Karl Eduard) Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Duke of Albany & family

[Rudolf_II]

Who would have taken over the Duchy of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha had Charlie for some reason not done so?  As said, Edward VII and the Duke of Connaught renounced their claims and those of their families.  Would it have ended up in the hands of Bulgarian Royals?  Or the Portuguese or Belgians?

[basilforever]

Well Duke Ernest I's next younger brother was Ferdinand, and his eldest son was King Consort Ferdinand of Portugal, and he had  male line descendents so I guess it would have gone there.

I have to say, CE's actions and decisions and views with regard to WW2 and Nazism cannot be blamed on nothing and no one but himself, and his own bad character.

[SSKENDER]

Well Duke Ernest I's next younger brother was Ferdinand, and his eldest son was King Consort Ferdinand of Portugal, and he had  male line descendents so I guess it would have gone there.

I have to say, CE's actions and decisions and views with regard to WW2 and Nazism cannot be blamed on nothing and no one but himself, and his own bad character.

Dear Basilforever,

If we are to conduct an in depth historical study of anyone, it is always wise to determine what made this man/woman take certain actions or decisions.

This is not trying to make excuses for someone's action, nor a hagiography, but simply a deeper educational understanding of what was behind one's thinking to undertake certain actions.

In KE's case, as in the case of many other German princes, their attraction and eventual inclusion in the Nazi party had much to do with World War I and the effects not of only themselves personally but on their time in the place they were living.

1 example: German princes saw communism as a huge threat, especially after what they witnessed within Germany after the breakup of the Empire and WWI.  Thus, many princes gravitated towards the Nazi party as a bulwark against Soviet expansion.

And do not forget that it while we can (and rightly so) condemn Nazis/Naziism, we shouldn't throw stones only at (in our discussion here) German princes, but many many people, including non-Germans, who saw the Nazis and their crazed leader in a positive light during the 1930s.  (case in point: President Kennedy's father.)

It wasn't until the war broke out and their full atrocities became public in 1945 that they were finally exposed for all to see!

Regards and best wishes,

[eejm]

One would hope not. I was reading Charlotte Zeepvat's new book on royal governesses and it remarks how the Waldeck-Pyrmont children (to which CE's mother Helen and his aunt Queen Emma of the Netherlands belonged) had a very progressive upbringing where the children, including the daughters were brought up to be pretty liberal-minded and progressive and this is one of the reasons Leo and Helen suited each other so well.

grandduchessella, what is the name of this book?  I'd like to look for it.  I love Charlotte Zeepvat's work.  Thanks!

In Queen Wilhelmina's autobiography, she talks a little about her mother's (Queen Emma) youth.  She also mentions the progressive education of Emma and her sibilings, that their parents valued education very much for both their daughters and sons, that they were very liberal.  Helena stayed close to many of Leopold's Oxford friends after her death, and presumably Alice and CE were around them as well.  I wonder if CE would have taken an interest in Nazism had he stayed in Britian?  There were British before the war who admired and agreed with the principles of Nazism. 

[grandduchessella]

It's From Cradle to Crown. It's not a photo book like her previous works (though there are some great photos in there) but rather a in-depth look at the lives of royal governesses and nurses throughout the various courts of Europe and their effect.

[grandduchessella]

I agree that there were many, including Ambassador Kennedy, who were friendly to the Nazis. They don't have stones thrown at them here becasue this is a discussion of royals, primarily the Duke of Coburg. This isn't too excuse others and President Kennedy had to basically keep his father pushed far into the background when he ran for President. If the tools that exist now, the internet and 24 hr news channels primarly, existed back in 1960 it probably would've been impossible and his father's statements and actions would've been endlessly replayed.

With the royals who were anti-Communist there was also a strong vein of anti-Semitism, both mild and overt. Prince Philip admits to this in the Royals and the Reich book when it's discussing some of his relatives who were members of the party. It was definitely a confusing time in Germany--in some of the volumes of the Illustrated London News I just bought, there are a number of photos and articles dealing with the disturbances throughout the country and some photos of the new agitator, Adolf Hitler, in Bavaria. His book, Mein Kampf, was published in 1923 or 1924 and laid out all his opinions on Jews and the need for their expulsion, etc...It was there for everyone who wanted to support him to read. Those who became strong supports, as did CE, knew all this going in and accepted it, even embraced it. Sometimes people actually do what they say they're going to do. Perhaps it went farther than people realized in the beginning but the basics were there from the very start.

"The world is too dangerous to live in - not because of the people who do evil but because of the people who sit and let it happen.  Albert Einstein"

[Rebecca]

With the royals who were anti-Communist there was also a strong vein of anti-Semitism, both mild and overt. Prince Philip admits to this in the Royals and the Reich book when it's discussing some of his relatives who were members of the party. It was definitely a confusing time in Germany--in some of the volumes of the Illustrated London News I just bought, there are a number of photos and articles dealing with the disturbances throughout the country and some photos of the new agitator, Adolf Hitler, in Bavaria. His book, Mein Kampf, was published in 1923 or 1924 and laid out all his opinions on Jews and the need for their expulsion, etc...It was there for everyone who wanted to support him to read. Those who became strong supports, as did CE, knew all this going in and accepted it, even embraced it. Sometimes people actually do what they say they're going to do. Perhaps it went farther than people realized in the beginning but the basics were there from the very start.

Very well said and I totally agree!

[Rebecca]

The insanity of nazism was very visible long before the war. The nazis, for example, began killing those they thought to be unworthy to live, crippled and/or retarded people. Many of these were children. The nazis had to end this (officially, as the killings continued secretly) after public protests. This was years before the war. Corporal Hitler's talk and rant about the Lebensraum for Germans was also pre-war, as were the Nuremberg laws (1935).

If one did not think, for example the killings of crippled and/or retarded people, and the Nuremberg laws, to be atrocities it may have been because one was openly or secretly supportive of them. Since Carl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha was one of corporal Hitler's royal pets, it would be ludicrous to believe that he did not know and support what was going on.

[Rebecca]

I recently read in a book that there was a rumour (I think in 1942 or 1943) that Hitler was going to make duke Carl Eduard of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha his puppet king in Norway. I have never heard of this before or elsewhere. Does anyone know if there was any truth in it, or if it was just one of these unsubstantial rumours?

[HerrKaiser]

The insanity of nazism was very visible long before the war. The nazis, for example, began killing those they thought to be unworthy to live, crippled and/or retarded people. Many of these were children. The nazis had to end this (officially, as the killings continued secretly) after public protests. This was years before the war.

It makes for little difference in terms of the crimes, but I was not aware that the euthanasia programs were going in the 1930s. The data i have seen indicates these killings start in late 1939 after war began and the populaiton was focused away from most things other than war.

the idea of destroying "unfit" lives is one of the arguements anti abortion groups use when the choice is made to terminate a fetus that has a malady.

[Rebecca]

It makes for little difference in terms of the crimes, but I was not aware that the euthanasia programs were going in the 1930s. The data i have seen indicates these killings start in late 1939 after war began and the populaiton was focused away from most things other than war.

You are right, my mistake, I am sorry. I wrote somewhat hasty.  (And it is very late here, but that is no excuse.) However, there was a massive propaganda campaign for what the nazis called euthanasia throughout the 1930's, as well as 100 000's of people with "defects" being sterilised, which is an atrocity in itself (although the nazis were not the only ones conducting such sterilisations).

[dmitri]

Sybilla was charming. I recently saw a wonderful portrait of her in the Royal Palace in Stockholm. I felt so sorry for her that she never saw her beloved son become King. It was so tragic.

[LenelorMiksi]

Carl Eduard, born Charles Edward, Duke of Albany & Prince of Great Britain & Ireland has a thread of his own in the Windsors.  I'm interested in his wife and children:
He married Princess Viktoria-Adelheid of Schleswig-Holstein-Glueksburg (1885-1970) and they had 5 children:

1. Johann Leopold (1906-1943), who married Baroness Feodora von der Horste (1905-1972)
2. Sibylla (1908-1972) married Gustav Adolf, Hereditary Prince of Sweden (1906-1947)
3. Hubertus (1909-1943)
4. Caroline Matilde "Calma" married three times: 1st to Count Friedrich of Castell-Rüdenhausen (1906-1940), 2nd to Captain Max Schnirring (1895-1944) & 3rd to Karl Andrée
  (1912-1984).  Arturo Beéche mentioned that Carl Eduard had a daughter that had "gone unconventional" on the Windsor thread, I'm assuming he means Calma.
5. Friedrich Josias, who was born in 1918, and if he is still alive is the head of the ducal house.  He married 1) Victoria-Luise, Countess of Solms-Baruth 2) Denyse von Murel

[Adagietto]

The Duke and Duchess with their children in 1916:



Sibylla with her Swedish prince:

There has naturally been discussion as to whether the prince came to share the Nazi sympathies of her parents, but there seems to be no evidence that he did.

[grandduchessella]

His wife, nicknamed 'Dick' (I don't know why) was the niece of Empress Augusta Victoria (Dona)of Germany, consort of Wilhelm II, CE's cousin. Her sisters included Alexandra Victoria (who married, and divorced, August Wilhelm, son of 'Dona' and Wilhelm),  Helena (who married Prince Harold of Denmark, brother of King Christian X of Denmark), Adelheid and Caroline Mathilde (both of whom married Solms-Baruth brothers) and Friedrich who married Marie Melita, daughter of CE's cousin Sandra Coburg. There were thus a number of links between the SH family and that of the Coburgs, Solms-Baruths and Prussians in the latter generations.  Caroline Mathilde's (of SH and Solms-Baruth, not to be confused with CE's daughter Calma) daughter, Viktoria-Luise m. her cousin Fredrich Josias of SCG in 1942 but they divorced in 1946.

CE & VA's son Hubertus was killed in WW2 (1943) while fighting in Romania.

Friedrich Josias & Victoria Louise's daughter Beatrice was one of the few modern Coburg's to marry royalty. She Friedrich of Saxe-Meiningen in 1977. He was the nephew of Dona's daughter-in-law Adelheid.

Calma had probably the most colorful life of CE's children, marrying (and divorcing) multiple times:
1st 1931 (div 1938) Friedrich-Wolfgang Graff zu Castell-Rüdenhausen
2d 1938 Max Schnirring (killed in air crash 7 Jul 1944)
3d 1948 (div 1949) Karl Otto Andrée
She had 3 children by each of her first 2 husbands. After she was widowed, she went to work as a shoemaker--her work being described in the paper as elegant as well solid.