Author Topic: Richard III remains found & identified  (Read 143939 times)

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Offline mcdnab

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #150 on: April 03, 2013, 02:43:56 PM »
Personally I was surpised Leicester Cathedral was so vocal about what it wanted for the tomb given the ongoing row over whether it should be there at all.
To be fair the Cathedral is correct that recent royal memorials are plain slabs (to be fair that is in part because recent monarchs are buried at St George's Windsor which is not exactly awash with room for elaborate tombs) it is also more in keeping with the more modern view of memorial stones in general.
I am not over keen on any kind of 'mock' 15th century imagined style tomb as like the one that has been proposed which is not reallly in keeping with the cathedral.
As to the licence row it rumbles on as a group of descendants of Richard's siblings have now threatened a judicial review (which in England means a judge examines all the details relating to the decision in this case the licence and rules whether it has been fair to all parties etc)
The university has pointed out in response that the relatives are so distantly related and so much time has passed since the death of Richard III they were under no obligation to consult them over the burial plans.
It is also worth pointing out that some of the first calls for burial in York came from councillors in the city on the day the authority announced a rise in tax,cuts in services and job losses (a good day to bury bad news perhaps)

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #151 on: June 17, 2013, 01:19:32 PM »
Bit of an update. It seems that Richard is definately going to be reinterred at Leicester Cathedral. One thing mentioned that is beginning to make my blood potentially boil is this...
Leicester is a multicultural city, ( aren't they all!) and the council are feeling some disquiet over having Richard's "boar" on his tomb/tabletop tomb/slab.
The Richard III society has pointed out that this is his cognizance and as such, it is unacceptable to omit it.
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Offline CountessKate

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #152 on: June 18, 2013, 08:46:55 AM »
Bit of an update. It seems that Richard is definately going to be reinterred at Leicester Cathedral. One thing mentioned that is beginning to make my blood potentially boil is this...
Leicester is a multicultural city, ( aren't they all!) and the council are feeling some disquiet over having Richard's "boar" on his tomb/tabletop tomb/slab.
The Richard III society has pointed out that this is his cognizance and as such, it is unacceptable to omit it.


On what grounds is the council feeling disquiet? 

Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #153 on: June 18, 2013, 09:25:40 AM »
Presumably on the basis that the wild boar is member of the pig family, and therefore that the symbol might be offensive to Muslims. Leicester has a very large Asian population - about one-thid of the total when I lived there 12 years ago.

Have the council made any inquiries of the local Muslims?

Ann

Offline CountessKate

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #154 on: June 18, 2013, 10:59:51 AM »
Presumably on the basis that the wild boar is member of the pig family, and therefore that the symbol might be offensive to Muslims. Leicester has a very large Asian population - about one-thid of the total when I lived there 12 years ago.

Have the council made any inquiries of the local Muslims?

Ann

I hadn't heard about this latest twist in an already incredibly serpentine story, but suspect that no enquiries were made.  Unless there was something inherently insulting about the depiction of the wild boar, I can't see that the Muslim community (equalled in Leicester, actually, by the Hindu and Sikh communities together, although it actually is the largest of the Asian religions there if you can call East African Indian origins Asian) objecting to the image in a Christian place of worship any more than they seem to object to images of pigs in shops or other public places.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #155 on: June 18, 2013, 02:47:32 PM »
I am betting that the Muslim ( and Jewish ) communities couldnot give a stuff about this. Its probably some politically correct jobsworth in some dusty back office somewhere.
 i must re iterate that the Richard III Society has stated that it is absolutely unacceptable to omit the boar device
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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #156 on: June 19, 2013, 02:35:37 AM »
Something tells me too that no one has been consulates and the council are simply jumping to conclusions.
Ann

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #157 on: July 07, 2013, 04:35:43 AM »
Bit of an update. It seems that Richard is definately going to be reinterred at Leicester Cathedral.

There is still a challenge in the High Court to this, and it has not been thrown out yet. Leicester gives the appearance of pressing ahead regardless, but the case is not cut and dried.

I am half surprised by how strongly people feel about this, away from the circles of those who have always been interested. Someone I spoke to the other day who has no particular interest in the topic said vehemently "Of COURSE he should go back to York!"
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Offline mcdnab

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #158 on: July 08, 2013, 01:28:24 PM »
I doubt very much the legal challenge has much of a chance but hey might be surprised - as someone who actually lives in York - let Leicester have the tourists we get enough already lol.
To be honest the whole thing is a bit daft no-one was that bothered about him before all this..... he is rather a footnote in history.

Offline edubs31

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #159 on: July 08, 2013, 07:36:39 PM »
Sorry to veer slightly off topic but did anyone catch Jeopardy tonight? A photo of Richard III's wax model recreation from his remains was shown. The winning contestant answered correctly.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #160 on: July 09, 2013, 04:40:49 PM »
I doubt very much the legal challenge has much of a chance but hey might be surprised - as someone who actually lives in York - let Leicester have the tourists we get enough already lol.
To be honest the whole thing is a bit daft no-one was that bothered about him before all this..... he is rather a footnote in history.


He is one of the better-known Kings of England, and not just through Shakespeare's portrayal. It's inevitable that there would be a (huge) surge in interest when his remains were found, but the fact that they have been says in itself that people cared and were interested. No-one is fighting to have James II rediscovered as far as I know...:-)

I do know a lot of people both in York and also elsewhere around the county, country and world who have strong views on the burial issue  - 80% in favour of York, the city to which he showed particular favour and treated as his "capital" for most of his adult life, and whose Minster he knew well. As it's not about what anyone in York or Leicester or anywhere else personally wants, surely? - or even about tourism (I wonder how many people visit a town to see a grave? don't the assorted museums to him and castles he lived in really have more draw?) rather, a question of finding an appropriate burial place for someone - else, why dig them up? The issue of Good or Bad doesn't even enter into it - we don't subject the other Kings of England to such an acid test; some of the worst tyrants in history made sure they had the most splendid grave (though there's a certain poetic justice in the spectacle of William the Conqueror bursting as he was stuffed into his tiny coffin!).

« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 04:45:51 PM by Janet Ashton »
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #161 on: July 18, 2013, 07:17:48 AM »
Well, this is an improvement on the slab idea.....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-23355604
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Offline mcdnab

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #162 on: July 18, 2013, 02:52:56 PM »
Well Shakespeare's villain is certainly a memorable character - i explained myself badly

Had it not been for the death or disappearance of the Prince's, the upsurge of interest in Richard in the 20th Century due to certain books and the PMK biography (with its numerous errors) that in turn sparked a wider interest in Richard then a King who reigned for such a short period would be remembered as a bit of a footnote.

I would be very wary of surveys of public opinion they generally are based on pretty low sampling and those people who vent or sign petitions are usually not the majority just a very vocal group.
The petitions over the burial naturally show strong favour to the idea of a York burial in part because there has been a lot of encouragement of the idea by MPs, council's , local historians and Richard III fans shall we say. Many think it is just more fitting some believe it was his wish and others just want their local area to win the row.

We still know very little about Richard's day to day life in his youth - his early childhood was probably spent with his mother at the many numerous York households (mainly Fotheringhay) - in the early 1460s he was certainly housed in London with his brother George - his wardship or care if you like was granted to the Kingmaker in the early 60s but Warwick had numerous homes across England and medieval nobility moved around their various assets a great deal - Richard certainly spent time in the north in Warwicks household but to say that Middleham was his childhood home as many claim is a stretch - by the time he was technically in Warwick's care he was already a teenager.
In the 1470s after his marriage - his division of the Warwick estates gained him significant assets in the north - and Edward naturally decided to make him the key political player in the north but he still went to war with the King in France etc. His main households were established in those northern bases.
Given the patronage he held it was only natural that local minor landlords, towns and cities looked to him as the best connected noble in the area for favours, help and patronage and like many nobles of the day he was happy to dispense it in return for local loyalty etc.

On his accession or usurpation which ever you prefer he was heavily reliant on his northern allies to hold the crown - his brother's household had been largely made up of people from the Midlands and South who resented Richard and his northern cohorts - so his continuing patr4onage to city's like York is not suprising - hence the investiture of his son as Prince of Wales in York etc.
As to his burial choice well York may have been what he intended but his chantry endowments could also have just been piety and generosity to a city that he believed was loyal to him - He buried his wife in Westminster Abbey not York.

A city that in the 1450s had been unswervignly Lancastrian in its loyalties.

I think to be honest you can argue for quite a few places - Middleham where he certainly spent a lot of time, Fotheringhay where he was most likely brought up, St George's at Windsor where his brother Edward IV was buried, or Westminster with his wife (which to be honest is where i think he shoudl have been put) as well as Leicester where he died or York Minster.

To be fair general archeaological practice is to bury an excavated body as near the original resting place as possible hence the decision by the universtiy to opt for the cathedral.
York Minster has made it catagorically clear that they are not intersted in the row and have no desire to have him buried there.
With reference publicity and tourism - given the level of interest wherever his remains end up i think it will pull in people the RII Society will be running trips from all over the world for a start and of course the reason Leicester is so keen  they will also spend cash and viist the museum to Richard the city is now planning. It has never really been about Richard for his many good and bad qualities but about the revenue and unlike York which already pulls in millions of visitors a year Leicester could do with it more. Lol.

quote author=Janet  Ashton link=topic=17261.msg525752#msg525752 date=1373406049]
I doubt very much the legal challenge has much of a chance but hey might be surprised - as someone who actually lives in York - let Leicester have the tourists we get enough already lol.
To be honest the whole thing is a bit daft no-one was that bothered about him before all this..... he is rather a footnote in history.


He is one of the better-known Kings of England, and not just through Shakespeare's portrayal. It's inevitable that there would be a (huge) surge in interest when his remains were found, but the fact that they have been says in itself that people cared and were interested. No-one is fighting to have James II rediscovered as far as I know...:-)

I do know a lot of people both in York and also elsewhere around the county, country and world who have strong views on the burial issue  - 80% in favour of York, the city to which he showed particular favour and treated as his "capital" for most of his adult life, and whose Minster he knew well. As it's not about what anyone in York or Leicester or anywhere else personally wants, surely? - or even about tourism (I wonder how many people visit a town to see a grave? don't the assorted museums to him and castles he lived in really have more draw?) rather, a question of finding an appropriate burial place for someone - else, why dig them up? The issue of Good or Bad doesn't even enter into it - we don't subject the other Kings of England to such an acid test; some of the worst tyrants in history made sure they had the most splendid grave (though there's a certain poetic justice in the spectacle of William the Conqueror bursting as he was stuffed into his tiny coffin!).


[/quote]

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #163 on: July 19, 2013, 12:52:02 PM »
Well Shakespeare's villain is certainly a memorable character - i explained myself badly

Had it not been for the death or disappearance of the Prince's, the upsurge of interest in Richard in the 20th Century due to certain books and the PMK biography (with its numerous errors) that in turn sparked a wider interest in Richard then a King who reigned for such a short period would be remembered as a bit of a footnote.

I would be very wary of surveys of public opinion they generally are based on pretty low sampling and those people who vent or sign petitions are usually not the majority just a very vocal group.
The petitions over the burial naturally show strong favour to the idea of a York burial in part because there has been a lot of encouragement of the idea by MPs, council's , local historians and Richard III fans shall we say. Many think it is just more fitting some believe it was his wish and others just want their local area to win the row.

Yes, it's true that there's a reasonable amount of local nationalism in this - but I've heard views from people all over the world, as I've said - who have no vested interest in either city, don't sign petitions, and are actually quite knowledgeable about history - not simply tagging onto the coat tails of MPs. If anything, having an MP pronounce on a issue seems to me to alienate people rather than encourage them!

We still know very little about Richard's day to day life in his youth - his early childhood was probably spent with his mother at the many numerous York households (mainly Fotheringhay) - in the early 1460s he was certainly housed in London with his brother George - his wardship or care if you like was granted to the Kingmaker in the early 60s but Warwick had numerous homes across England and medieval nobility moved around their various assets a great deal - Richard certainly spent time in the north in Warwicks household but to say that Middleham was his childhood home as many claim is a stretch - by the time he was technically in Warwick's care he was already a teenager.

English Heritage are for some reason currently describing Middleham as his "childhood home" - I don't think anyone else does. Frankly, it's puzzling, because the place is associated far more significantly with his adulthood, as you note below, and with his son - a far more compelling connection.

As to his burial choice well York may have been what he intended but his chantry endowments could also have just been piety and generosity to a city that he believed was loyal to him - He buried his wife in Westminster Abbey not York.


I think to be honest you can argue for quite a few places - Middleham where he certainly spent a lot of time, Fotheringhay where he was most likely brought up, St George's at Windsor where his brother Edward IV was buried, or Westminster with his wife (which to be honest is where i think he shoudl have been put) as well as Leicester where he died or York Minster.

No one will ever know his intentions - even his intentions for Anne, since he may have planned to rebury her once he made the point that she was Queen and would lie among Queens, or may well not have expected to be buried with her at all. He did intend to remarry. Westminster however is impossible anyway, as the Royal Household made it clear that they did not intend anyone new to be placed there - and Middleham Council is backing York.



To be fair general archeaological practice is to bury an excavated body as near the original resting place as possible hence the decision by the universtiy to opt for the cathedral.
York Minster has made it catagorically clear that they are not intersted in the row and have no desire to have him buried there.
With reference publicity and tourism - given the level of interest wherever his remains end up i think it will pull in people the RII Society will be running trips from all over the world for a start and of course the reason Leicester is so keen  they will also spend cash and viist the museum to Richard the city is now planning. It has never really been about Richard for his many good and bad qualities but about the revenue and unlike York which already pulls in millions of visitors a year Leicester could do with it more. Lol.



Archaeological practice in relation to unknown remains is to bury them near the place they were originally interred. In the case of known remains, they are supposed to consult known relatives - which seems to be the basis of the challenge to the decision. York Minster has *not* actually said they don't want him - just that they remain neutral based on the legal position. That's all. And you're right - it's not about Richard; rather more about people making money...
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Offline Suzanne

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #164 on: August 12, 2013, 09:57:10 AM »
My review of Anne Neville: Richard III's Tragic Queen by Amy Licence - it incorporates the latest reasearch from the discovery of Richard III's remains

http://www.royalhistorian.com/anne-neville-richard-iiis-tragic-queen-by-amy-licence/