Author Topic: Richard III remains found & identified  (Read 166691 times)

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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2013, 03:52:32 AM »
Its quite lovely isn't it?
I was imagining unicorns and fluffy kittens for some reason but I think Ms. Langley has done herself proud :-)
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2013, 05:45:53 AM »
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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2013, 04:16:35 PM »
Its quite lovely isn't it?
I was imagining unicorns and fluffy kittens for some reason but I think Ms. Langley has done herself proud :-)

Did she actually design it? Most of the stories are saying "commissioned" on behalf of the Richard III Society, but I don't know if that means she asked someone else to design it, or to produce it to her designs?
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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2013, 04:23:53 PM »
Absolutely agree with you with regards to the Hicks "biography" Simon although it does explain such things as degrees of kinship requiring dispensation prior to marriage ....oh and in the intro he kindly informs us that" Anne was a woman"....

Is this the writer who suggested that their marriage was incestuous because of the Clarence/Isobel marriage?
I have never read anywhere else that brothers are forbidden to marry sisters. I had thought that kinship was conferred by marriage from one person to their in-laws but not further to include their siblings as relations of their in-laws (so, to put it more clearly, had Anne stayed single and married Clarence after Isobel's death, this would have been incestuous, but there was no bar on her marrying Clarence's brother at any point). Am I wrong here?
Shake your chains to earth like dew
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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2013, 04:25:42 PM »

And I am still thinking about the answer to your question above, Janet.

Cool - look forward to hearing your thoughts on his motivation and all. (and the thoughts of anyone else who wants to weigh in too!)
Shake your chains to earth like dew
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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2013, 07:38:08 PM »
 Is this the writer who suggested that their marriage was incestuous because of the Clarence/Isobel marriage?
I have never read anywhere else that brothers are forbidden to marry sisters. I had thought that kinship was conferred by marriage from one person to their in-laws but not further to include their siblings as relations of their in-laws (so, to put it more clearly, had Anne stayed single and married Clarence after Isobel's death, this would have been incestuous, but there was no bar on her marrying Clarence's brother at any point). Am I wrong here?
[/quote]

Doubtful, in the incest department. There are too many instances of brothers from one family marrying sisters from another family for this to have been the case.

Offline Kimberly

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #96 on: February 14, 2013, 02:21:59 AM »
Its quite lovely isn't it?
I was imagining unicorns and fluffy kittens for some reason but I think Ms. Langley has done herself proud :-)

Did she actually design it? Most of the stories are saying "commissioned" on behalf of the Richard III Society, but I don't know if that means she asked someone else to design it, or to produce it to her designs?

I saw one interview where she said that she had designed the tomb and that the society were very positive about it. This was on the TV before the final announcement of the findings. I also have read in other places that she commissioned her design working with the Richard III society. If I get to the bottom of it I will let you know.

Edited to add;
I have spent time looking online and it DOES state commissioned everywhere.
I wonder wether Ms Langley "suggested" some or all of the design?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 09:44:21 AM by Kimberly »
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #97 on: February 14, 2013, 02:23:42 AM »
Absolutely agree with you with regards to the Hicks "biography" Simon although it does explain such things as degrees of kinship requiring dispensation prior to marriage ....oh and in the intro he kindly informs us that" Anne was a woman"....

Is this the writer who suggested that their marriage was incestuous because of the Clarence/Isobel marriage?
I have never read anywhere else that brothers are forbidden to marry sisters. I had thought that kinship was conferred by marriage from one person to their in-laws but not further to include their siblings as relations of their in-laws (so, to put it more clearly, had Anne stayed single and married Clarence after Isobel's death, this would have been incestuous, but there was no bar on her marrying Clarence's brother at any point). Am I wrong here?

Its been a while since I read it but I will revisit it again today and let you know....its a bit mind numbing to say the least :-)
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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #98 on: February 14, 2013, 09:42:12 AM »
Here goes :-)

Canon law in the 15th century was a moral code strictly enforced by the church. It was a minefield, forbidding marriage amongst relations whom "we would scarcely acknowledge today".
( Hicks ).

- KINSHIP   -   Consanguineous - blood relatives who shared a common ancestor
                -   Affinial - whereby marriage or sexual intercourse that made relatives out of in laws.

Consanguinity and Affinity were expressed as degrees. Marriage between partners within four degrees of kinship were incestuous and banned.
Royalty and aristocracy frequently inter married with kin in which case a Papal Bull would be requested and dispensed. Frequently, they did not wait for the dispensation but married in the expectation of the Bull.
According to HICKS;
Impediments to Richard and Anne's marriage were;
- First cousins once removed ( as indeed were Clarence and Isabel Neville ).
- A distant tie created by Anne's first marriage - Edward of Lancaster was a distant cousin to them both.
- Anne and Richard were brother-in-law and sister-in-law. In the 15th century view they were brother and sister.
A dispensation was applied for and approved on 22nd April 1472. Hicks claims that this was insufficient to validate the marriage and according to him " no other dispensation was ever secured".
No date for the wedding recorded but it is likely that it took place in late spring/early summer 1472.
None of Richard's contemporary critics queried this marriage

The Richard III Society refutes the claim that Isabel and Anne could not legally marry two brothers whereby the first marriage would set up the impediment of Affinity to the second.
Interestingly, Clarence complained that the marriage was effected by "force and fear"- thus making it null and void.
(You can follow this argument by googling Richard III society).




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Offline Kimberly

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #99 on: February 14, 2013, 09:52:16 AM »
Going a bit off topic ( again). Leicester quite fancy having a root around and having a look for Wolsey's remains now;
http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Richard-III-Discovery-prompts-calls-remains/story-18125709-detail/story.html#axzz2KtAkFzsp.
I've also heard that there is some interest in exhuming Richard of Eastwell and comparing DNA with Richard III.
http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kentish_express/news/2013/february/7/richard_iii.aspx

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Offline Kalafrana

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #100 on: February 14, 2013, 11:12:53 AM »
The other royal marriages between two brothers and two sisters that I can think of off the top of my head was between John of Gaunt and Edmund, Duke of York, sons of Edward III, and the two daughters of Pedro the Cruel of Castile.

Philip II of Spain and his sister married a brother and sister from the Portuguese royal family - the two sets were also double first cousins!

Ann

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #101 on: February 14, 2013, 12:22:06 PM »
The other royal marriages between two brothers and two sisters that I can think of off the top of my head was between John of Gaunt and Edmund, Duke of York, sons of Edward III, and the two daughters of Pedro the Cruel of Castile.

Philip II of Spain and his sister married a brother and sister from the Portuguese royal family - the two sets were also double first cousins!

Ann

Portuguese royal marriages were highly incestuous well into the nineteenth-century, uncle-niece pairings being especially popular :-).

Philip's grandmother Juana and her brother also married (Habsburg) siblings.

I think Michael Hick's argument is that Richard and Anne ought to have obtained a dispensation, but no-one else seems to agree that they were siblings by affinity anyway. I have no doubt that if they were Clarence would have made use of the fact when he wanted the marriage declared void.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 12:27:42 PM by Janet Ashton »
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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #102 on: February 14, 2013, 12:25:16 PM »

Interestingly, Clarence complained that the marriage was effected by "force and fear"- thus making it null and void.
(You can follow this argument by googling Richard III society).






The "force" presumably being the removal of Anne from his own guardianship....thank you for all this material - I will check out Hicks's books in full soon. (Most interested though in his book on Clarence, as I assume it moves him beyond the stereotyped picture of the bad guy who kept changing sides!)
Shake your chains to earth like dew
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Ye are many; they are few.

Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #103 on: February 14, 2013, 12:27:54 PM »
The fact that the marriage was not challenged at the time, and a dispensation granted in the event of one by the legitimate authority to do so does not seem to interest Mr. Hicks. It didn't interest Henry VIII almost fifty years later, but he was in a better position to rewrite history.

Back to charisma; at least part of it is charm, which Hitler certainly did not have (most people in the inner circle were bored by him in social situations. It's astonishing how "charming" you can find a person who has literal power of life and death over you, though), Richard has kept legions of people interested enough to devote years to proving his innocence on the basis of what they assume was his character: loyal, brave, romantic (there is a cottage industry hellbent for leather on making the Neville marriage a love match. Which I hope it was, but let's face it . . .) Marie Antoinette has it as well, although Andre Castelot once wrote that he doubted you could find a thousand Frenchmen in 1793 who shared the current devotion to the Queen). Part of the charisma may stem from a sentimental transformation of the victim --- and it is usually a victim --- into a figure that would have been unrecognizable to his/her contemporaries --- although in Richard's case, he really was beloved in the North, and they were loyal enough to York to participate in more than one uprising.

I am writing this while occasionally gazing upon my class taking a makeup examination. 24 out of 26 failed the first go-round, with the two survivors getting "A". This allowed me to point out to the rest that they were screwed. Clearly I had taught the material. To which one of them cheerfully replied, "Yes, but not in a way we understood!"

The story of my life.

Simon
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Offline Louis_Charles

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Re: Richard III remains found & identified
« Reply #104 on: February 14, 2013, 12:37:02 PM »
Dear Janet,

I think the position of the King was transformed under the Tudors into a far more centralized monarchy than any medieval monarch would have known, thanks to the efforts of Wolsey, Cromwell and Cecil (Burghley). There is the Reformation; I doubt that any Plantagent could have conceived making the church essentially an arm of the state. There is the relationship of Richard to the nobility, who are still exercising a great deal of power right up until Bosworth --- and then spend the next 80 or 90 years having the daylights kicked out of them by Henry VII, VIII and Elizabeth, along with the rise of a powerful middle class whose interests would only have been nascent to Richard. He simply wasn't a Londoner, and by the Tudors, London was the center of royal power. I really doubt that Richard ever conceived that only London could have been that center, or he wouldn't have been so devoted to northern interests.
There are similarities --- both Richard and the Tudors had to deal with Scottish insurgency, and a few other things, but on the whole, I think you can safely use the image of the last Plantagenet king staggering around a battlefield calling for a horse as the death knell of the traditional medieval monarchy.

Simon
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"The road to enlightenment is long and difficult, so take snacks and a magazine."