Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc

[William-Kentucky]

Princess Thyras letters to Maria Feodorovna are in the Russian state archive, GARF.

Certainly those surviving letters written by Princess Thyra to the Empress prior to Marie Feodorovna's exile would be in the Russian State Archives. 

(As a side note here, it is interesting to speculate on those written by the Princess to the Empress after 1914.  With the declaration of war, normal channels of communication were disrupted; perhaps some were smuggled in; perhaps others were copied and forwarded on under the auspices their mutual sister-lin-law Queen Alexandrine or through the Crown Princess of Sweden.  I would think that as the situation deteriorated in Russia, communication would have become increasingly difficult, especially after the Tsar's abdication; it is possible that some letters may have simply disappeared in the general chaos.)

Please remember, too, that the Empress did spend some time in England before relocating to Denmark.  Were letters between the two sisters exchanged at that time?  And if so, did the Empress bother to keep them?  Or toss them after replying?  And as for those letters written to the Empress in Denmark - which may have contained references to the Anna Anderson/Grand Duchess Anastasia question - these could have been destroyed by the Empress herself; destroyed after her death by either the Grand Duchess Xenia or the Grand Duchess Olga (though the latter, because of her morganatic marriage, seemed to be kept pretty much out the of the decision making process); or consigned to a sealed family archive.

Finally, there is the question of the number of letters:  more than once, the Empress was known to have complained about how infrequently Princess Thyra wrote. 

Dear, where did you have the idea that in WW1 letters were copied by the Princess of Sweden? I'm also confinced that she copied letters.

Hi, Teddy:

That the Crown Princess of Sweden acted as a postal "distribution center" has been widely quoted.  The most recent example I can think of is in John van der Kiste's book "Northern crowns:  the kings of modern Scandianvia."  She was, of course, particluarly well-suited to this, as she herself had first cousins fighting on both sides. 

I've often thought her position must have been an uncomfortable one more than once during the war years:  though Sweden was neutral, her mother-in-law, German-born Queen Victoria, made no pretense of neutrality, and King Gustav, though not as vehement in his feelilngs, certainly realised what would happen to the Swedish economy should relations with Germany become too strained.

(In her relations with her mother-in-law, their are distinct similarities between the Crown Princess of Sweden and Queen Ena of SPain, who's mother-in-law was born an Austrian Archduchess.)

[Teddy]

That she was a go-between, thats what I know, but i've read somewhere that she copied letters.

[Eric_Lowe]

How close was Dagmar with Daisy ?

[William-Kentucky]

How close was Dagmar with Daisy ?

Hi, Eric:

While I have seen nothing to indicate that there was any degree of hostility or dislike between the two women, neither have I seen anything to indicate that they shared any special bond --- though I would imagine that the Empress, with relatives on both side of the conflict, would have appreciated the Crown Princess's efforts as a "postal distribution center" during World War I.

As the Crown Princess was born Princess Margaret of Connaught, chances are that Queen Alexandra probably knew her better than the Empress did.  My guess is that the Empress and the Crown Princess were on what might be called "formally friendly" terms (perhaps exchanging holiday or birthday greetings or even gifts on special occasions). 

Putting to one side the marriage between the future King Frederick VIII and Princess Lovisa, my impression is that it wasn't until the next generation (that is, that of King Frederick VIII's children) that relations in general between the Royal Houses of Denmark and Sweden began to really warm up --- a process which seems to have increased with each following generation.

[Eric_Lowe]

I agree that Daisy would have been closer to her "Aunt Alix" than her sister Dagmar. Maybe Queen Alexandra asked for her help (she was never too shy to ask for assistance). I was sad that there is no bio on her. However I think her cousin Maud would have known her better since they were both Princess of Great Britian and move in similar circles.

[William-Kentucky]

I agree that Daisy would have been closer to her "Aunt Alix" than her sister Dagmar. Maybe Queen Alexandra asked for her help (she was never too shy to ask for assistance). I was sad that there is no bio on her. However I think her cousin Maud would have known her better since they were both Princess of Great Britian and move in similar circles.

Hi, Eric:

I agree with you completely:  many of us would lilke to see biographies on more of the children and grandchildren of King Christian IX and those of Queen Victoria.  Sad to say, from a historical or dynastic perspective (NOT, however, from a personal one!), not all of them were important enough to merit full biographies or even whole chapters in biographies of others.  As but two examples, I would love to find more material on Prince Waldemar and Princess Thyra.  Still, if one does some digging, one can find bits and pieces of information.

John van der Kistes has written several books, two of which which you may find helpful here:

"Edward VII's children" (which does have information on Queen Maud);

"Northern crowns:  the kings of modern Scandinavia" (which does have information on Crown Princess Margaret).

[Eric_Lowe]

I did read both Van Der Kiste books. They are good beginners guides, but not too many further details. I think the new Norweigen book on Haakon & Maud might have more details.

[William-Kentucky]

I did read both Van Der Kiste books. They are good beginners guides, but not too many further details. I think the new Norweigen book on Haakon & Maud might have more details.

Hi, Eric:

As unfortunate as it is, no matter how interersting a royal might be on a personal level, unless they are important historically or dynastically, I think it is going to be difficult (not necessarily impossible, but difficult) to find much in-depth information on them --- and, as a rule, certainly not neatly and concisely in one source.  To illustrate my piont, take the children of King Frederick VIII:  of them, the most important from these viewpoints are Prince Christian and Prince Carl.  Is this to say that the life stories of, say, Prince Harald or of Princess Louise were not interesting?  Not at all. (And what of  Prince Gustav, come to think of it?) 

Perhaps the best source of information on some of these more obscure royals might be in newspaper or magazine archives, with special attention being paid to articles written at the time of their birth, marriage, or death. 

[Eric_Lowe]

Indeed. We can usually get a sidelight of them in bios of more major royals as cross reference.

[William-Kentucky]

Indeed. We can usually get a sidelight of them in bios of more major royals as cross reference.

Hi, Eric:

And I find the discovery of these "sidelights" (as you so aptly call them) to be very rewarding --- rather like finding a missing piece of jigsaw puzzle.

To bring this discussion back toward the letters and diaries of the Empress Marie in general, and those to/from Princess Thyra specifically, I quote from a passage in Theo Aronson's "A family of kings":

"Never as close to her sisters Alexandra and Dagmar as they had been to each other, Thyra had drifted still further away during the last years of her life.  A barely perceptible chill had developed between them.  The marriage of Thyra's son, Ernest Augustus, to Kaiser Wilhelm II's daughter, must have seemed like a betrayal to her violently anti-Prussian sisters.  And the fact that Thyra had been on the opposite side during the war had considerably widened the estrangement between them.  ...  The end of the war had done little to bringing the three sisters closer together.  Thyra could hardly have been expected to share Alexandra's delight at the collpase of Wilhelm II's Germany.  ...  Princess Thyra lived on into a world vastly different from that of her youth ... (and) was buried in the family vault, built by her father-in-law to house the bodies of the sovereigns of Hanover."

This "sidelight," coupled with difference in ages and interests, does much, I think, to explain the relatively few extant letters between Princess Thyra and the Empress, especially in the post-war/revolution years.

[Eric_Lowe]

Indeed. However Queen Mary kept up correspondence with Thyra as far as I know. She seemed closer to Dagmar than to Alexandra after the war.

[katmaxoz]

I recently bought a book called "treasures of Russia - Imperial Gifts".  Its a catalog from 2002 in Copenhagen on Faberge etc and the Danish and Russian royal families. It actually has a lot of letters from various members of the Romanov family quoted in it and I thought this one from Marie to her mother Queen Louise written before Xenia and Sandro's wedding might be of interest to people here about how she *really* thought about the wedding and Sandro in particular.

" He does not hesitate to show his impatience, that the long wait is finally over, shows me no feeling at all and is as dry as a stick, which is more than ungrateful after all the courtesy I have shown him since he became engaged. He receives everything comme si cela lui etait du [as if it was his due] but is never fully satisfied in his pretensions which are more than grand, and which I did not expect from a gentleman, let alone from a Grand Duke, and which pain me rather, for I am wholly disillusioned, but that is just between us I trust, for I find it highly distasteful!  In time, I hope this will cease, and that her good influence will help awaken more noble feelings in him - it probably comes from a bad upbringing, but he is also lacking in tact, and in delicacy, which must be inne [inborn] - that is not something you learn, it is something you are born with! Now that this has all been confined to paper, I worry about having said these things - but to you, Mama, it does not matter - you will keep it to yourself, won't you." [19/31 July 1894]

**Source - the state archives of the Russian Federation, fond 642

[Ena]

I recently bought a book called "treasures of Russia - Imperial Gifts".  Its a catalog from 2002 in Copenhagen on Faberge etc and the Danish and Russian royal families. It actually has a lot of letters from various members of the Romanov family quoted in it and I thought this one from Marie to her mother Queen Louise written before Xenia and Sandro's wedding might be of interest to people here about how she *really* thought about the wedding and Sandro in particular...

Do you happen to have an ISBN on that book? Where did you acquire it and would you consider it a worthy purchase? Any additional information about the book would be great.  Thanks.

[Eric_Lowe]

Yes. Lets share the information.Out-of-prints is hard to find in Denmark. I search all of Copenhagen before locating a copy of Dagmar's diary (in Danish) with lots of awesome photos.

[katmaxoz]

I recently bought a book called "treasures of Russia - Imperial Gifts".  Its a catalog from 2002 in Copenhagen on Faberge etc and the Danish and Russian royal families. It actually has a lot of letters from various members of the Romanov family quoted in it and I thought this one from Marie to her mother Queen Louise written before Xenia and Sandro's wedding might be of interest to people here about how she *really* thought about the wedding and Sandro in particular...

Do you happen to have an ISBN on that book? Where did you acquire it and would you consider it a worthy purchase? Any additional information about the book would be great.  Thanks.

Title: Treasures of Russia - Imperial Gifts
2002 - the royal silver room, copenhagen
Author - Krog, Ole Villumsen, et al
isbn - 87-983777-5-2

the book is in English, Danish and Russian. It wasn't easy, or cheap to find online and it's a title I backtracked from another book on Marie which used a lot of quotes from the letters in this one.  It has a short biography of all the members of the imperial family and seems to have quite a bit of objects that relate to Grand Duchess Xenia.

http://www.stocklund.dk/soelvkammer/soelvkammer.gb.html