Author Topic: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc  (Read 140454 times)

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Offline Teddy

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #90 on: December 02, 2009, 10:38:28 AM »
Thank you for reply. We can just ask the current Prince of Hannover about the letters of Queen Alexandra and the same we can ask for the Greece goverment or to King Constantine of Greece. Personally I think that also these letters are probaly destroyed because was it not a custom to send the complete correspondence back when the writer itself had died? As for the letters towards Queen Olga, I think that the chance that they are still anyware is bigger because she had a lot on her mind at the end of her days and had not even the time to send the letters to her sister-in-law back.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #91 on: December 02, 2009, 12:24:18 PM »
I think the letters from Thyra might still survive since both sisters lived to an old age. Thyra was the last sister of the trio of Danish Princeses to die.

William-Kentucky

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #92 on: December 04, 2009, 05:48:46 AM »
Thank you for reply. We can just ask the current Prince of Hannover about the letters of Queen Alexandra and the same we can ask for the Greece goverment or to King Constantine of Greece. Personally I think that also these letters are probaly destroyed because was it not a custom to send the complete correspondence back when the writer itself had died? As for the letters towards Queen Olga, I think that the chance that they are still anyware is bigger because she had a lot on her mind at the end of her days and had not even the time to send the letters to her sister-in-law back.

Hi, Teddy:

Well, the House of Hanover is still capable of generating headlines --- though more for the eccentric goings-on of its current head than for anything else.  Still, presumably he would be the one to grant permission for access to any of the family archives.

As for the question of ownership (which leads to the question of copyright), I believe that this devolve to the recipient of the letters and that under normal circumstances, they have the right to dispose of their private papers as they wish.  As one example, Queen Victoria named her youngest daughter, Princess Beatrice, as her literary executor.  Princess Beatrice, in turn, took it on herself to transcribe her mother's diaries, editing as she went along, and then destroying the originals:  not even King Edward VII  could prevent her.  It would seem that Queen Alexandra's request that her letters to various members of her family be returned to her upon their deaths was just that:  a request, not adherence to a hard-and-fast custom or policy.

Given the vicissitudes of the Greek Royal Family since 1917, their archives pose some interesting questions.  Yes, you are quite right in saying that during the last years of her life, Queen Olga had more important things on her mind than the safekeeping of private papers.  As I recall, she was in Russia at the time the revolution broke out there; by the time she was able to leave, I believe that the Greek royals had already gone into exile and that she rejoined them in Switzerland (?), not Athens.

During the years when Greece seesawed between a monarchy and a (nominal) republic, what happened to the archives?  Were they impounded intact by the new governments?  Were parts of them destroyed?  And if so, by whom?  Did members of the family have time destroy documents which might, for whatever reason, prove to be detrimental to them (much in the same way that the Empress Alexandra burned portions of her private papers in 1917)?  Or, conversely, the did the republican government destroy those papers which would show the royal family in a favorable light?

Certainly at the time of the counter-coup in 1967, I doubt that either King Constantine nor Queen Anne-Marie had much time to worry about letters and diaries.  In fact, in one documentary (perhaps the wonderful Danish-produced documentary, "A royal family"?), Queen Anne-Marie spoke quite openly and candidly, saying that they packed very little, assuming that they would only be away for a few days.  (Whether or not any such private papers were later returned to them, I have no idea.)

Bringing this back to the letters and diaries of the Empress Marie, the same questions can be asked.  We know that many of the Romanov personal papers (letter, diaries, photo albums, etc.) were impounded the by the Soviets and consigned to storage where most of them are just now beginning to surface for the first time since the revolution; still other were taken by their owners when they went into exile or were later sent out of Russia.  But what happened to the papers the Empress had in her posession at the time of her death?  Are they kept as they treasures they undoubtedly are by family members?  Were they destroyed?  (And if so, by whom?)  Or perhaps as courtesy, were they consigned to the archives of the Danish Royal Family?  (Which, among other things, contains the dossier complied at the request of Prince Waldemar into the case of Anna Anderson by Herluf Zahle, the Danish minister in Berlin in the 1920s.  It seems that when Zahle retired, he turned his files over to King Christian X where they have remained under embargo ever since.  As author Peter Kurth found out when he was researching his book on Anna Anderson/Grand Duchess Anastasia, such documents are considered by Queen Margrethe as being part of the private family archives and, as such, cannot be made available to researchers or scientists.)

With time, as the immediate family members and/or descendants of those involved die, perhaps such papers as are still extant will be released; in the meantime, we can only speculate on their contents.

FASCINATING!

William-Kentucky

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #93 on: December 04, 2009, 08:15:47 AM »
I think the letters from Thyra might still survive since both sisters lived to an old age. Thyra was the last sister of the trio of Danish Princeses to die.

Hi, Eric:

You're correct:  Princess Thyra, Duchess of Cumberland, outlived the Empress Marie by about five years.  And unless she, too, requested the return of  letters she wrote to family members (for their eventual destruction), they should have survived.  Alternately, she may have requested their return to have them placed in the Hanover family archives.  If they remained in Denmark, there is the chance that the Empress's two daughters, the Grand Duchess Xenia and the Grand Duchess Olga, may have either consigned some/all of their mother's papers to the rubbish bin while cleaning out Hvidore; kept some/all of them; or placed them in the Danish Royal Archives.

What is especially interesting is that apparently the Duchess of Cumberland was one who urged her sister to investigate the claims of Anna Anderson, reasoning that by doing so, it would help clear up the matter once and for all.  Any such letters would no doubt make for extremely interesting reading!

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #94 on: December 04, 2009, 05:01:04 PM »
I agree.

Unfortunately, the information on Prince Waldemar who did investigate the claims of Anna are under lock and key. Those close to Queen Margarete II is convinced that she will never open the information during her lifetime. When her son is king, then we will see that information, letters from both Thyra and Dagmar on the subject. I am not sure if the letters of Thyra, Duchess of Cumberland would be in the archievs in Hannover, it may still be with the family.

kmerov

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #95 on: December 09, 2009, 05:02:41 PM »
Princess Thyras letters to Maria Feodorovna are in the Russian state archive, GARF.

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #96 on: December 09, 2009, 06:36:47 PM »
Not the ones after her exile to Hvidore...

William-Kentucky

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #97 on: December 10, 2009, 04:45:04 AM »
Princess Thyras letters to Maria Feodorovna are in the Russian state archive, GARF.

Certainly those surviving letters written by Princess Thyra to the Empress prior to Marie Feodorovna's exile would be in the Russian State Archives. 

(As a side note here, it is interesting to speculate on those written by the Princess to the Empress after 1914.  With the declaration of war, normal channels of communication were disrupted; perhaps some were smuggled in; perhaps others were copied and forwarded on under the auspices their mutual sister-lin-law Queen Alexandrine or through the Crown Princess of Sweden.  I would think that as the situation deteriorated in Russia, communication would have become increasingly difficult, especially after the Tsar's abdication; it is possible that some letters may have simply disappeared in the general chaos.)

Please remember, too, that the Empress did spend some time in England before relocating to Denmark.  Were letters between the two sisters exchanged at that time?  And if so, did the Empress bother to keep them?  Or toss them after replying?  And as for those letters written to the Empress in Denmark - which may have contained references to the Anna Anderson/Grand Duchess Anastasia question - these could have been destroyed by the Empress herself; destroyed after her death by either the Grand Duchess Xenia or the Grand Duchess Olga (though the latter, because of her morganatic marriage, seemed to be kept pretty much out the of the decision making process); or consigned to a sealed family archive.

Finally, there is the question of the number of letters:  more than once, the Empress was known to have complained about how infrequently Princess Thyra wrote. 

Offline Teddy

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #98 on: December 10, 2009, 05:47:07 AM »
Princess Thyras letters to Maria Feodorovna are in the Russian state archive, GARF.

Certainly those surviving letters written by Princess Thyra to the Empress prior to Marie Feodorovna's exile would be in the Russian State Archives. 

(As a side note here, it is interesting to speculate on those written by the Princess to the Empress after 1914.  With the declaration of war, normal channels of communication were disrupted; perhaps some were smuggled in; perhaps others were copied and forwarded on under the auspices their mutual sister-lin-law Queen Alexandrine or through the Crown Princess of Sweden.  I would think that as the situation deteriorated in Russia, communication would have become increasingly difficult, especially after the Tsar's abdication; it is possible that some letters may have simply disappeared in the general chaos.)

Please remember, too, that the Empress did spend some time in England before relocating to Denmark.  Were letters between the two sisters exchanged at that time?  And if so, did the Empress bother to keep them?  Or toss them after replying?  And as for those letters written to the Empress in Denmark - which may have contained references to the Anna Anderson/Grand Duchess Anastasia question - these could have been destroyed by the Empress herself; destroyed after her death by either the Grand Duchess Xenia or the Grand Duchess Olga (though the latter, because of her morganatic marriage, seemed to be kept pretty much out the of the decision making process); or consigned to a sealed family archive.

Finally, there is the question of the number of letters:  more than once, the Empress was known to have complained about how infrequently Princess Thyra wrote. 


Dear, where did you have the idea that in WW1 letters were copied by the Princess of Sweden? I'm also confinced that she copied letters.

Alexander1917

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #99 on: December 10, 2009, 09:40:43 AM »
That they excanged letters via Sweden is know, but that they were copied is new.. I can't belive this.

William-Kentucky

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #100 on: December 10, 2009, 10:51:15 AM »
That they excanged letters via Sweden is know, but that they were copied is new.. I can't belive this.

I thought, too, that any such letters would simply be put in a new envelope and addressed to the recipient in such a way as to look as it were originating in either Denmark or Sweden.

Apparently, though, some (if not all) were indeed re-copied and sent on in the above-mentioned manner.  (Why, I do not know; perhaps due to the contents of some of them being of a sensitive - if not confidential - nature?)  This was cited by John van der Kiste in his book "Northern crowns:  the kings of modern Scandinavia," a fascinating, concise overview of the Royal Famiilies of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden from the late nineteenth century through the accession of the current sovereigns. 

(It looks as if the then-Crown Princess Louise of Sweden carried on in World War II the efforts which her predecessor started in World War I.  By that time, due to the German occupation of Denmark, Queen Alexandrine was unable to paritipcate in these efforts.)

Eric_Lowe

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #101 on: December 10, 2009, 12:13:35 PM »
I think those letters Thyra wrote to Waldemar and Dagmar on the Anna Anderson case is locked up in the Danish archievs.

William-Kentucky

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #102 on: December 10, 2009, 01:30:45 PM »
I think those letters Thyra wrote to Waldemar and Dagmar on the Anna Anderson case is locked up in the Danish archievs.

Hi, Eric:

I  have no doubt that any of the letters still extant that Princess Thyra wrote to either Prince Waldemar or the Empress Marie regarding the Anna Anderson question are sealed in the private archives of the Danish Royal Family (as are the files kept by H. Zahle, Danish minister in Berlin in the 1920s).

Princess Thyra must have known what a painful subject Mrs. Anderson was to her older sister; I'm sure she was most tactful in broaching the matter --- but how much she put on paper and how much she discussed in person with her sister, I have no way of knowing.  It is not unreasonable to imagine the Empress burning or tearing up any letter she found offensive --- and it is equally easy to imagine her giving a good tongue-lashing to anyone who would dare try and pursue any such matter further with her.

Given what I know of Princess Thyra's character, I am sure that she felt was acting on the best of motives, that of wanting to "clear the matter up once and for all."  And didn't that turn out to be a forlorn hope!


Eric_Lowe

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #103 on: December 10, 2009, 06:58:39 PM »
Indeed. Thyra was the kindest of the three sisters.

William-Kentucky

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Re: Marie Feodorovna, her correspondence - letters, diaries etc
« Reply #104 on: December 11, 2009, 04:23:20 AM »
Indeed. Thyra was the kindest of the three sisters.

Hi, Eric:

I've wished for a long time now that there was more information available on the both Princess Thyra and on Prince Waldemar:  what relatively little I know about them are bits and pieces which have been culled from numerous other sources (many of which are biographies of their more famous siblings).  With regard to the three sisters, the consensus seems to be that Queen Alexandra was the most beautiful; the Empress Marie the cleverest; and the Duchess of Cumberland having the sweetest disposition.

Perhaps these could be topics for the "Danish Royal Family" thread?