Author Topic: How Did Jemmy Die?  (Read 18098 times)

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Offline Lady Macduff

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How Did Jemmy Die?
« on: January 21, 2013, 10:35:34 AM »
I know no eye witness accounts mention Anastasia bringing Jemmy down into the murder room. Giliard and Gibbes identified the non-human bones in the mass grave as belonging to Jemmy, but in FOTR King and Wilson talk about how the guards stabbed Ortino as he was barking while they were carrying out Tatiana's body. As far as we know, Joy was the only captive to survive the night of the murders. So Jemmy had to have gone down into the cellar with Anastasia, right?

Just something I've wondered about for a long time.
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Offline mitia

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2013, 12:17:50 PM »
....and the following question might be "why was Jemmy taken downstairs whilst Ortipo was left upstairs ?".....

Offline Lady Macduff

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2013, 02:39:21 PM »
The best reason I can think of is that they were told not to bring anything with them, and Tatiana was far more of a "rules" person than her sister. I'm sure it must have been hard for her to leave her pet, but there was never any real indication that they wouldn't be coming back. As for Joy, I assume there was no one who could have carried him down.
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Rodney_G.

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2013, 05:54:46 PM »
I don't know that Jemmy was necessarily brought downstairs into the cellar by anyone. Maybe. I think not; it would likely have been commented on by some of the participants/witnesses. My understanding is that Jemmy was barking loudly at the top of the stairs in the aftermath of the kilings, as the bodies were being brought out to the waiting truck, thus getting on the already shaky nerves of those men. It was easier to stab her and shut her up  than to soothe her .

Offline Lady Macduff

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2013, 06:27:24 PM »
According to Fate of the Romanovs, though, that's what happened to Ortino.
We are sitting together as usual, but you are missing from the room. - AN

Jen_94

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2013, 06:37:05 PM »
I've always wondered what happen to Jemmy too, that fateful night...

Offline mitia

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2013, 07:37:21 AM »
"The best reason I can think of is that they were told not to bring anything with them, and Tatiana was far more of a "rules" person than her sister. I'm sure it must have been hard for her to leave her pet, but there was never any real indication that they wouldn't be coming back"

This makes sense to me, and I agree with you, as far as I know it is Ortipo who was "left" upstairs.

Rodney_G.

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2013, 10:51:22 AM »
I most probably have confused Jemmy and Ortipo in my scenario, though not definitively. That is, the identification of the dog's body found at the minepit,  , along with a photo of it , is of Jemmy. But the dog stabbed at Ipatiev House by a guard was not identified by name or breed  or body type. Very few of the guards, in fact just the interior guards posted by Yurovsky, would have been familiar enough with the family dogs to know them by name. Thus, it's at least possible Jemmy was bayoneted and ultimately  deposited in the minepit, with Ortipo's fate unknown, or at least the body never discovered.

Offline blessOTMA

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2013, 11:31:36 PM »
Imo Anastasia would not leave Jemmy..no way ... Jemmy  was a much smaller dog  than Ortipo and AN  could get away with brining her  much easier  than TN could trying to bring Ortipo.  Jemmy was most likely trampled in the mayhem and was with the bodies etc.  They would not protest AN bringing little Jemmy imo, because they just wanted everyone  downstairs as quickly as possible.

We know Jemmy  wound up with the bodies, it makes sense she was always with them...Ortipo was killed in the rooms it appears , Joy was found in the possession of an ex guard I believe ...or he may have been "out" when the murders occurred...and hooked up with who ever had him later...another story I heard was Joy  was on his own until the Whites found him...I always found it  sadly ironic  that at least  of  Impative's prisoners made it to England

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Offline Sarushka

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2013, 08:25:03 AM »
FOTR page 312:
As they [Kudrin & Goloshchokin] passed the secondary staircase, the two men saw Ortino, Tatiana's bulldog, whimpering at the top. The dog rushed down the staircase in search of his mistress. A nearby soldier grabbed a bayonet, impaled the quivering body, then heaved it into the rear of the Fiat. 'A dog's death to dogs!' Goloshchekin commented.

There's more information about the dogs (too long to quote in full) on pages 363-4 of the hardcover edition. In short:
Sokolov found a female canine corpse at the Four Brother mine shaft on 25 June 1919, which Gibbes identified as Jemmy. Forensic pathologists determined the dog had not been dead more than a week. It's possible one of the guards had adopted Jemmy and then (this next supposition is mine, not K&W's:) killed her for fear of being discovered by the White investigators.

Joy was found at the home of guard Michael Letemin in the summer of 1918, and taken by a member of the British military mission to a farm in Berkshire.

Ortipo's body was never found. She may have been burned at the mine following the murders.
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2013, 08:29:19 AM »
Also, there is a photo of Jemmy's corpse on page 558 of Gibel' Tsarskoi Sem'i by Nikolai Ross.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
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Jen_94

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2013, 12:46:28 PM »
Thanks for the information! Such a shame about Ortino. I knew Jemmy had been found in 1919, but have always wondered how she died.

xwhiterussia

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2013, 06:11:28 PM »
From what I have read: Anastasia carried it downstairs because his legs were too short to walk up and down the stairs. The murderers did not want to take the lap dog away from her,for it would set alarm bells going in the family's head.I do not know exactly how he died,though I agree that he may have been trampled.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 06:13:15 PM by xwhiterussia »

xwhiterussia

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2013, 06:27:37 PM »
However, since I do not know much knowledge about it, here is a link to a similar (and older) forum:
http://forum.alexanderpalace.org/index.php?topic=11298.15

Neeosine

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2013, 05:11:25 PM »
Her corpse:

Here is the account:
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The dog was found on June 25th,1919 in the bottom of the open shaft. Thanks to low temperature in the shaft, the corpse was well preserved. The right front paw is broken. A hole had been broken in the skull, and this, in the opinion of a doctor, was the cause of its death. Gibbs testified: "Anastasia Nicholayevna had a small dog of some Japanese breed. It was a very small dog with long fur. Its color was red-black.... It had distinguishing marks: it had large, round eyes; its teeth were exposed and always visible, its tongue hanging out its mouth. I don't remember on which side. Its nickname was "Jemmi". Such dogs are very small and often carried in the arms. It belonged to Anastasia Nicholayevna. They all loved this dog, particularly the Empress. I saw the dog today at the shaft. I affirm that this dog which I saw at the shaft, is Jemmi. I noted the fur and the shape of the eye sockets and the teeth. It is undoubtedly she.

Tutelburg, Tegleva, and Ersburg alo recognized her. In another book:
Quote
Jimmy the spaniel was killed when his head was crushed by a rifle butt.