Author Topic: How Did Jemmy Die?  (Read 18097 times)

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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2013, 06:03:48 PM »
it had large, round eyes; its teeth were exposed and always visible, its tongue hanging out its mouth.

A lot like Alfred E. Neuman . . . .

Neeosine

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2013, 08:05:45 PM »
Nice one, Tsarfan!

Offline Sarushka

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2013, 09:40:09 PM »
Here is the account:
Quote
The dog was found on June 25th,1919 in the bottom of the open shaft. Thanks to low temperature in the shaft, the corpse was well preserved. The right front paw is broken. A hole had been broken in the skull, and this, in the opinion of a doctor, was the cause of its death. Gibbs testified: "Anastasia Nicholayevna had a small dog of some Japanese breed. It was a very small dog with long fur. Its color was red-black.... It had distinguishing marks: it had large, round eyes; its teeth were exposed and always visible, its tongue hanging out its mouth. I don't remember on which side. Its nickname was "Jemmi". Such dogs are very small and often carried in the arms. It belonged to Anastasia Nicholayevna. They all loved this dog, particularly the Empress. I saw the dog today at the shaft. I affirm that this dog which I saw at the shaft, is Jemmi. I noted the fur and the shape of the eye sockets and the teeth. It is undoubtedly she.

What source is this from -- Wilton?
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Neeosine

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2013, 09:49:20 PM »
The Sokolov Investigation by John O'Connor and Nicholas Sokolov actually.

Offline TimM

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2013, 06:03:45 AM »
Not even animals were safe from those Bolshevik butchers.
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Offline Sarushka

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2013, 08:27:40 AM »
The Sokolov Investigation by John O'Connor and Nicholas Sokolov actually.

Thanks. I need to get that book one of these days.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline rgt9w

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2013, 05:18:01 PM »
Not even animals were safe from those Bolshevik butchers.

A little of topic, but Borzois were also killed during the Revolution simply because they were owned by aristocrats.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 05:20:16 PM by rgt9w »

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #22 on: March 01, 2013, 09:00:07 PM »
Not even animals were safe from those Bolshevik butchers.

The Humane Society of the United States estimates that 3-4 million dogs are euthanized each year in this country because no one wants to care for them.

Dog meat is regularly consumed in quite a few countries from China to Switzerland (yes, Switzerland).

The Bolsheviks have a lot to answer for, but I'm not sure killing a couple of dogs would make the list.  And I say this as a life-long dog owner who currently obeys every whim of a dictatorial little Schnoodle with a moustache.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 09:09:30 PM by Tsarfan »

Offline rgt9w

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2013, 08:27:19 AM »
With respect, it was a larger issue than a couple of dogs. I don't dispute that we euthanize many dogs in the U.S., but Borzois were specifically targeted for destruction during the revolution.  Hundreds of them were killed because of the social class they symbolized.  I would assume a number died or were euthanized because their owners had fled or been killed.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2013, 08:31:04 AM by rgt9w »

Offline edubs31

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2013, 08:47:32 AM »
Right and right. But I think the question then was why Jemmy was killed. Was he just one of the many dogs euthanized for unfortunate yet practical reasons...or was he never even given a chance specifically because of who he belonged to?
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Offline TimM

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2013, 11:37:56 AM »
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or was he never even given a chance specifically because of who he belonged to?

I'll lay you credits to beans the poor dog was killed because he belonged to Anastasia.
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Offline Tsarfan

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2013, 11:56:41 AM »
. . . or was he never even given a chance specifically because of who he belonged to?

The Romanov's dog Joy was taken in and cared for by a guard, so I don't think there was any particular animus against the dogs because of their ownership.  I think the best guess is that the dogs lived or died based on which ones did or did not get in the way during the run-up to and the wrap-up from a massacre.

To people who were murdering eleven people that night -- including children -- and trying to keep it under wraps, it seems a little unrealistic to expect them to have paid much attention to dogs, one way or the other.

I think rgt9w brings up an interesting point.  The Bolshevik takeover and ensuing civil war unleashed vast forces of pent up resentment, anti-semitism, xenophobia.  And the relatively sudden release of those forces resulted in chaotic horrors of all sorts across Russia on both the White and the Red sides.  (It's worth reading Figes' A People's Tragedy to get a sense of just how universally violent and even sadistic the period became.)

I suspect the wholesale killing of Borzois based on association and the killing of the Romanov dogs tracked a distinction worth noting in the treatment of their masters.  Everything about the way the Romanovs' captivity and murders was managed reflected cold calculation for a specific political end.  Many members of the aristocracy were killed by mobs in the throes of an inchoate and unreasoning fury.

If anyone was motivated to kill the Romanovs' dogs to make a political statement, the dogs would have been killed while the Romanovs were alive.  You can't make a point to a dead person.

Rodney_G.

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2013, 01:58:21 PM »
rgt9w's point about the calculated killing of borzois is not inconsistent with the destruction of Jemmy and (presumably) Ortipo, either because she was in the way or as  just part of the murderous frenzy of that night. Both of the latter seem to me to  be the case.

But, Tsarfan, the Bolsheviks' desire to kill Jemmy for political reasons would obviously have had to take a back seat to their greater need to have the Imperial Family remain unsuspecting as to their fate in the period (days, weeks?) prior to the eve of July 16. Just taking Jemmy away ,much less killing her , would have had the Romanovs in a terrible state of upset and alert which is not conducive to a smooth execution.

As for making a point as we're imagining, though I don't think it was a conscious Bolshevik goal, least of all for the IF , it could have had an effect on Whites and IF sympathisers if Jemmy's gratuitous  murder had become public knowledge.
 But I think the actual murders of the IH eleven would have been provocative enough in that regard.

Offline Tsarfan

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2013, 02:27:45 PM »
. . . either because she was in the way or as just part of the murderous frenzy of that night. Both of the latter seem to me to be the case.

I agree with this, Rodney.

I just don't see whatever malice the guards might have held toward the Romanovs carrying over to the dogs.  Remember that the guards who knew the family were not used as assassins that night.  People of more detached viewpoints were brought in for the job.

Offline Georgiy

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Re: How Did Jemmy Die?
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2013, 03:35:05 PM »
An interesting question would be was Jemmy killed at the same time as the IF. We can presume Ortipo was. I remember reading years ago in File on the Tsar that Jemmy was too well preserved to have been killed at the same time as the Romanovs. Would this be true or not though, and if true, what was the real reason behind killing Jemmy at a later date?