Re: What and Who is Alexei to you?

[Helen_Azar]

Yes, sir! I'll behave.  

[rskkiya]

Many things are constantly worshipped that never existed, why should this be any different? It should make absolutely no difference to anyone, other the worshippers.  

Helen A
This is an interesting point!
What exactly  is the meaning here of "worship"? Bowing, praying and burning incense before an image? Respecting and honoring a beloved companion? Protecting and defending an Idea?
The tsarevich Alexie is none of these things to me, but he may be these things to some people...

Civility is the truest key to respect
rskkiya

[Penny_Wilson]

One anecdote by a woman named Catherine Frolova quoted in the controversial volume 'The Fate of the Romanovs' does not warrant calling a boy 'sick'.  It seems Mr. King and Ms. Wilson were not so quick to quote the more complimentary excerpts of Eugenie de Grece's book!  

Mr. King and Ms. Wilson DID explain in their Introduction that their intention was to present new or previously -neglected or -unpublished information on the Imperial Family.  

What would be the purpose of yet another "safe" book full of the same old "nice" stories?

We wanted our book to fill in some blanks; to correct some misconceptions; to add a wealth of detail; and to provide a more rounded portrait of the family when put together with all the other information already out there on this family.  That's all.

And I did discuss this Alexei issue with you elsewhere on this board, Pravoslavnaya, but I haven't been able to locate it to reference it here...

[Penny_Wilson]

In the Orthodox Church we venerate the saints, of which the Martyred Tsarevich is one.  Recognizing the boy as a saint that we venerate does not imply an opinion that he was perfect on earth.  

I don't think any religion claims that their saints were perfect on earth.  In fact, I can remember being told by the priest who taught a religion class in my Catholic grammar school that some saints must have been among the most difficult, cantankerous and obnoxious people to have to live with.  He said, "They simply aren't EASY people."  I can certainly see where this is true of the Romanovs -- witness this conversation and several others...  

[rskkiya]

If saints were perfect then they would have nothing to overcome to bring them to G-D...(assuming we accept 'saints" and "g-d" as constructs)
Hence "real saints" are, as Penny suggested not the perfect people of haliographic myth but sinners maybe even proud, cruel or selfish people who struggled for change.

I still don't see anyone in the Imperial Family as saintly but then again I am [glb]EVIL[/glb]

lol
rskkiya

[Forum Admin]

Bob said something interesting the other day, that may be insightful here.  He said, that at least in his opinion, the IF are not Saints as much for how they LIVED, but rather, moreso how they DIED.

[Forum Admin]

Quite the opposite Alex. In the Orthodox tradition, they are called "passion bearers". Those who suffer terrible deaths without losing their faith in G-d. I will try to get Bob to pop in and explain more, as I am not Orthodox.

[Robert_Hall]

Passion Bearers: A minor form of sainthood that recognizes the Christian humility and patience with which they endured their captivity [and death].
[This is NOT martyrdom [in which one dies because of one's faith].

[rskkiya]

I agree with Mr. Hall.

[bluetoria]

Bob said something interesting the other day, that may be insightful here.  He said, that at least in his opinion, the IF are not Saints as much for how they LIVED, but rather, moreso how they DIED.

Churches which recognize saints have three reasons for doing so:
1) The saint is seen as someone who can intercede in heaven for people on earth.
2) The saint in his or her earthly life demonstrated SOME quality that is worthy of imitation. This does not mean that they had to do everything well (or no one would be a saint).
3) The MAIN reason is that they struggled to do God's will in their lives. (Whether or not they succeeded is immaterial.)
A saint is not someone who is especially good or kind...it is someone who allows God to work in them.
Therefore, those people who follow these faiths can recognize in the IF (or more particularly in this thread, in the Tsarevich) these 3 qualities & to such people  the Tsarevich is a saint (if only because he was resigned to the Will of God & continued to trust in Him despite the terrors and upheavals that surrounded him.
Those people who do not adhere to such faiths don't need to recognize him (or anyone else) as a saint but cannot in all justice say to those who do believe, that the Tsaervich is not a saint any more than they can say that someone else's beliefs are foolish.  

[Janet_W.]

Bluetoria, thank you! Well stated.

I am not Russian Orthodox, but I respect that faith, as I do others, and would not denigrate the right and validity of a practitioner of Russian Orthodoxy to regard the Imperial Family in a manner different than, say, a historian's approach.

We are here to learn. That can include challenging or questioning another poster, but those wishing to "flame" someone for their religious beliefs (or, for that matter, a lack thereof) might consider going elsewhere.

[Robert_Hall]

According to religous teaching, ANYONE who reaches heaven is technically "a SAINT", whether or not they are canonised, regardless of whether or not their particular brand even preforms such a rite.

[bluetoria]

According to religous teaching, ANYONE who reaches heaven is technically "a SAINT", whether or not they are canonised, regardless of whether or not their particular brand even preforms such a rite.

That's true and, in fact. the early Christians referred to all the members of the Church as saints (as in all St. Paul's letters) but because the Churches recognize that it is of benefit to believers to have models to follow, some people are specifically recognized as worthy of imitation. These are the Saints (with a capital 'S'!) It doesn't mean that other people aren't saints...which is why in answer to Helen-Azar's question, '"How many saints do you know personally", I replied that I didn't know  

[rskkiya]

BACK ON TOPIC Please!

OK!
For some people here - he's a saint, for others he's a spoiled brat, and for some he's a little boy with hemophilia...

To me-- he is a footnote.

rskkiya

[Mandie, the Gothic Empress]

To me-- he is a footnote.

rskkiya

Rskkiya whats a footnote?? and thanks to going back on topic, because other people have different views on saints, God, etc,.......