Author Topic: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?  (Read 20125 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2013, 05:13:10 AM »
After we rescue the I.F. in my time machine, we'll swing by Revolutionary France and grab the Dauphin.

Well, there goes the 35-hour work week.


Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1938
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2013, 11:26:40 AM »
If anyone else has someone they'd like me to rescue, please let me know :)
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2013, 11:34:09 AM »
The Princes in the Tower and Britney Spears' career.  No wait . . . belay that last one.  Pick her up and put her in the Tower in place of the princes.  Just before Uncle Richard's friends drop by.

Offline Sarushka

  • Moderator
  • Velikye Knyaz
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
  • May I interest you in a grain of salt?
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2013, 12:37:04 PM »
Sarah, no fair. After all, they're your imaginary friends.

Pfft. Totally fair.
THE LOST CROWN: A Novel of Romanov Russia -- now in paperback!
"A dramatic, powerful narrative and a masterful grasp of life in this vanished world." ~Greg King

Offline Terence

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2013, 02:01:17 PM »
The Princes in the Tower and Britney Spears' career.  No wait . . . belay that last one.  Pick her up and put her in the Tower in place of the princes.  Just before Uncle Richard's friends drop by.

LOL
To Tim...well while you're in 1485 England, grab Uncle Richard before Bosworth.  For all the good he did in England I don't think he deserved that chop to the back of his head that we now know did him in.

Tsarfan, I suspect it wasn't Richard's friends that dropped by the Tower, but his enemies.  My money is on the Duke of Buckingham.

T

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2013, 05:03:19 PM »
Tsarfan, I suspect it wasn't Richard's friends that dropped by the Tower, but his enemies.

Wow, that's complicated thinking.  Is it like double secret probation?

Offline Paul

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 225
  • born a century too late
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2013, 06:41:02 PM »
When I was younger, the murders affected me on a more emotional level. Now, the forensics is more fascinating. Reading the testimony of the killers, the DNA evidence, etc, is intriguing. It's one of history's great murder mysteries. Perhaps watching too many CSI shows did that. <chuckle>

The fates of Ivan VI and the French Dauphin disgust me more deeply. The deliberate psychological torture of those boys were, to me, the greater atrocities. Ivan VI & the Dauphin were emotionally destroyed by inches long before death finally freed them. The IF were locked up and deprived, but they suffered comparatively less abuse. Their deaths came mercifully fast.
The only real possession you'll ever have is your character.
Tom Wolfe
US author & journalist (1931 - )

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1938
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2013, 08:02:32 PM »
Richard III and the two Princes are on the list. 
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Offline Terence

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2013, 08:09:13 PM »
When I was younger, the murders affected me on a more emotional level. Now, the forensics is more fascinating. Reading the testimony of the killers, the DNA evidence, etc, is intriguing. It's one of history's great murder mysteries. Perhaps watching too many CSI shows did that. <chuckle>

The fates of Ivan VI and the French Dauphin disgust me more deeply. The deliberate psychological torture of those boys were, to me, the greater atrocities. Ivan VI & the Dauphin were emotionally destroyed by inches long before death finally freed them. The IF were locked up and deprived, but they suffered comparatively less abuse. Their deaths came mercifully fast.

Totally agree Paul, the torture there was sick. They were just born to be abused through no fault of their own, very sad.

And for Tsarfan, there's really not much complicated thinking involved, since the Duke of Buckingham had a direct motive to off the kids, and had access. Richard had no real reason as Parliament had declared them illegitimate and him the King.  I'll take this further on the appropriate thread.

T
« Last Edit: February 23, 2013, 08:11:26 PM by Terence »

Offline edubs31

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1014
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2013, 08:35:50 PM »
Paul that's a pretty fair assessment, but "mercifully" fast? Maybe for some of those in the room that night, but not for OTMAA.
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2013, 06:01:47 AM »
The fates of Ivan VI and the French Dauphin disgust me more deeply.

I have long argued -- and to a not very receptive audience here -- the same point.

The horrors imposed on the French royal family were of a different order entirely than what the Romanovs endured:

- incarcerated in prisons rather than in luxurious houses with a cadre of servants
- family separated from each other
- their associates murdered in particularly cruel ways with efforts made to make sure the royal couple knew of it
- the son enticed to accuse the mother publicly of incest
- family members deliberately taunted with threats of death
- husband and wife humiliated at public trial
- husband and wife going to their deaths aware that death was coming
- facing their deaths before crowds that viewed them as entertainment

The Romanovs spent the evening before their deaths reading and playing cards.  They went down into the cellar certainly worried, but apparently thinking they were to be evacuated to another place.

The Commune was calculatingly sadistic in their handling of the Bourbons.  The Bolsheviks were coldly cynical in their handling of the Romanovs.

And you are entirely correct about Ivan VI.  Incontestably the legitimate tsar, he was imprisoned as a toddler at the age of one by Elizabeth, he was kept in isolation as a common prisoner, deprived of education and identity, reported to have become insane in the process, and then killed at 24 (barely older than Olga Nicholaevna) on Catherine II's orders.

When power was at stake, the Romanovs had proved themselves every bit as capable of cynical imprisonment and murder as the Bolsheviks.  Do not forget that two of the Russian tsars we call "the Great" -- Peter I and Catherine II -- deliberately tortured and murdered other Romanovs who threatened their rules or their legacies.  (Peter's son and heir Alexei was tortured to the point of death, something which could not possibly have occurred without Peter's concurrence.  Catherine II added manacles to the psychological torture Ivan was already enduring by isolation.)

16% of Romanov rulers were killed with the complicity of their own family.  16%.  It's an extraordinary number.  I think it would be very hard to find any Bolshevik with such a history of familicide in his lineage.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 06:15:37 AM by Tsarfan »

Offline edubs31

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1014
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2013, 11:09:07 AM »
Another solid assessment there Tsarfan minus one very important factor that you've chosen to admit.

Marie and Louie were sparred, as would have Louis-Joseph and Sophie been if they'd lived long enough. Olga, Tatiana, Marie and Anastasia were NOT. But, moving on...

Hard to offer a rebuttal since I more or less agree with you on all of your points below, but just for the sake of discussion...

- incarcerated in prisons rather than in luxurious houses with a cadre of servants
Very true, although the Ipatiev House wasn't exactly "luxurious". And those servants, by then, weren't forced to continue on with the family.

- family separated from each other
Key difference indeed. Interesting how for the IF it was the period of separation, perhaps more so than the thought of death itself, that depressed them.

- their associates murdered in particularly cruel ways with efforts made to make sure the royal couple knew of it
Yes. At least for the IF they were unaware of the atrocities being suffered by their family and "associates".

- the son enticed to accuse the mother publicly of incest
Well the Romanovs son had a debilitating disease to fight through while living in captivity, so that was no picnic...

- family members deliberately taunted with threats of death
Nicholas received his fair share of taunts, but not death threats, and certainly the rest of the family didn't have to endure that...agreed.

- husband and wife humiliated at public trial
If only Trotsky had his way this would have been a wash. Nicholas however was in fact humiliated to a lesser degree upon heading back home to Tsarkoe Selo. "Citizen Romanov", etc.

- husband and wife going to their deaths aware that death was coming
Interestingly I might have to disagree with you on this. More below...

- facing their deaths before crowds that viewed them as entertainment
Pretty rough. But is it worse than suffering repeated blows by bayonet, bullets penetrating your body and then severe beat downs with riffle buts? Nicholas & Alexandra got off WAY easy compared to most of the others in the room that night.

Quote
The Romanovs spent the evening before their deaths reading and playing cards.  They went down into the cellar certainly worried, but apparently thinking they were to be evacuated to another place...The Commune was calculatingly sadistic in their handling of the Bourbons.  The Bolsheviks were coldly cynical in their handling of the Romanovs.

This one is tricky for me. The dilemma between whether it's better to know or not to know. The French royal family had to suffer through incredible nervous exhaustion, knowing their time was coming sooner or later, but this also could have afforded them some type of spiritual peace. If you know you are going to die, and know for a while that it's coming (like someone suffering a prolonged and lethal illness) there are ways to make peace with death, almost to the point, for some, where you embrace it just before it arrives.

The Romanovs by contrast had to be stunned at the quick turn of events regarding their fate. Nicholas perhaps had some sort of premonition about what his fate, and maybe even that of his wife, would be. But probably not his retainers and CERTAINLY not his children. We were simply being moved that night as we had been before...we are slowly working their way towards exile. Not the Crimea, that much is out of the question by this point, but England? Perhaps Denmark or France even? Hell maybe the United States for all we know. We understand that ever since they entered the war the tide has turned for the allies.

Quote
16% of Romanov rulers were killed with the complicity of their own family.  16%.  It's an extraordinary number.  I think it would be very hard to find any Bolshevik with such a history of familicide in his lineage.

Well Stalin did hunt down a few of his former comrades. He went all the way to Mexico to whack Trotsky. Anyway to calculate the total number of Bolsheviks in "power" as opposed to Romanovs in power? Then you must divide that number but 304 for the Romanovs (1613-1917), and - assuming you lump the Soviets and Bolsheviks together - 73 for the Bolsheviks (1918-91).

Quote
And you are entirely correct about Ivan VI.  Incontestably the legitimate tsar, he was imprisoned as a toddler at the age of one by Elizabeth, he was kept in isolation as a common prisoner, deprived of education and identity, reported to have become insane in the process, and then killed at 24 (barely older than Olga Nicholaevna) on Catherine II's orders.

This was awful indeed. To some extent you'd think that imprisonment, bad as it was, would became his new normal. Certainly not the "fall's gonna kill ya" argument I've made before where having something and then losing it is often worse than never having it at all. I also don't think Ivan would be considered insane. Possibility demented in much the same way Peter III, minus the luxuries of course. But ultimately the thought of his imprisonment and then death, just when it seemed like the tide was turning in his favor, is sad beyond words.

One final thought...

Clearly many of us express significant bias with regards to the deaths of last of the Romanovs. Much of it is psychological. We were all alive in the 20th century, we weren't in the 18th. We have actual modern mediums such as photograph and (occasional) video footage to see our subjects of interest, unlike the portraits of the 18th century.

But its deeper than that. 1918 wasn't even a century ago. The world was supposed to be less violent and brutal by then, right? Systems of justice more fully developed and more universally understood. Fewer "savage" peoples in existence as the world was shrinking and continued to move towards globalization. Lessons learned from a brutal human history. A new regime that was to be a peaceful utopian political ideal...And then the horrors of WWI, and then WW2, and then the purges and the holocaust, Mao, Amin, Milosevic, Al-Qaeda and Rwanda. Killing OTMAA is symbolic in many ways...worst of all it shows that human beings, even in the supposedly more socially/intellectually/politically/economically developed 20th century that continued (and continues still nearly a century later) to be capable of ANYTHING!
Once in a while you get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right...

Offline TimM

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1938
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2013, 11:33:57 AM »
Quote
...worst of all it shows that human beings, even in the supposedly more socially/intellectually/politically/economically developed 20th century that continued (and continues still nearly a century later) to be capable of ANYTHING!


And the coming war between the West and the Muslim world will continue to show us at our worst, if any of us are around when it's over (because nuclear weapons will likely be used in this war).

Maybe humanity's time on Earth is coming to an end.  Like the dinosaurs before us, we had our time in the sun.  I wonder what race will be next to inherit the Earth
« Last Edit: February 24, 2013, 11:35:41 AM by TimM »
Cats: You just gotta love them!

Offline Lady Macduff

  • Boyar
  • **
  • Posts: 146
  • We will meet again in better times. - TN
    • View Profile
    • My Tumblr
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2013, 01:03:55 PM »
Personally, I never believed anyone survived Ekaterinburg. I guess I was comforted by knowing that they were together right to the very end, and are hopefully together now.
We are sitting together as usual, but you are missing from the room. - AN

Offline Tsarfan

  • Velikye Knyaz
  • ****
  • Posts: 1848
  • Miss the kings, but not the kingdoms
    • View Profile
Re: AP Therapy Group - Death of the IF. How do you cope?
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2013, 05:03:00 PM »
We have actual modern mediums such as photograph and (occasional) video footage to see our subjects of interest, unlike the portraits of the 18th century.

This has an awful lot to do with the hagriography around Nicholas and his family.


But its deeper than that. 1918 wasn't even a century ago. The world was supposed to be less violent and brutal by then, right?

If you were an African American living in fear of the Ku Klux Klan, not really.  If you were an Armenian, not really.  If you were a Russian Jew, not really.  If you were a South African black, not really.  If you were a victim of gas warfare, not really.  It was a world that only looked calm and genteel to a thin crust of white people of western European stock.

If anything, the 20th century brought us the greatest mass murders in human history in Germany, Poland, Russia, China, Cambodia as well as the greatest wars.

The longest period of peace in the West was the two centuries of the Pax Romana from 27 BC to 180 AD.  Nothing approaching it has been seen since, and nothing like it looks to be anywhere on the horizon.

Consider the case of the United States:  the First Barbary War, the War of 1812, the Second Barbary War, the Mexican-American War, the Civil War, the Spanish-American War, World War I, World War II, the Korean Conflict, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, the Irag War, the Aghanistani War.  And this doesn't count the three dozen or so Indian Wars and other wars in which we were involved other than as a primary combatant.  Yet we view ourselves as a peaceable culture.

The period around 1918 doesn't really stand out to me as signifying anything other than everyone catching their breaths to get ready for the next round.