Question: What would Alexandra have thought of Adolf Hitler?

[edubs31]

Yes Sanochka thanks for that. I know about the Nazi Swastika but I guess I never took the time to differentiate it with the eastern good luck symbol Alexandra drew.

Getting back to Romanovs relationship with the Jews for a moment. Unfortunately what I see here is something of a vicious cycle. You start off with antisemitic history of Russia but one that Alexander II improved upon. Unfortunately he was assassinated, and since liberal radicals and Jews were commonly accepted to be one in the same much of the blame naturally fell at their feet. In steps reactionary Tsar Alexander III and he is followed by Nicholas II who tries to walk in his father's footsteps. The progress Jews made during the reign of Alexander II is unwound. During the revolutions of 1905 and 1917 a disproportionate percentage of the revolutionaries were Jews. Of course considering their oppression under the Tsarist regime it's hard to blame them. But even from the early stages of the war many Russian Jews were were pro-German. This further embittered them to the Romanovs...and around and around we go.

I did however read something pleasant the other day about Alexandra have gotten to know a wounded Jewish soldier who had been living in the United States, in part because of Jewish persecution in Russia, but had emigrated back to his homeland once the war broke out and signed up for the army. She greatly admired this young soldier, and while I don't have the specific quote in front of me, she basically mentioned being disgusted with the Russian behavior towards the Jews and that she would personally see to it that this soldier would be free to travel and live wherever he chose in the country should he choose to stay.

[TimM]

Of course, all versions of the swastika have now been corrupted.  You see a swastika, and what instantly comes into your mind.  Nazis.

I did however read something pleasant the other day about Alexandra have gotten to know a wounded Jewish soldier who had been living in the United States, in part because of Jewish persecution in Russia, but had emigrated back to his homeland once the war broke out and signed up for the army. She greatly admired this young soldier, and while I don't have the specific quote in front of me, she basically mentioned being disgusted with the Russian behavior towards the Jews and that she would personally see to it that this soldier would be free to travel and live wherever he chose in the country should he choose to stay.

One has to wonder, had the Romanovs stayed on the throne, would Alexandra have pushed for Russia to take in Jews fleeing Nazi oppression (I had this happen in Days, or will happen, I should say).

[JamesAPrattIII]

Besides being found inexcavations at troy and Rome. As well as in Inca graves. The Swastika is a buddist religous symbol that is still used today in Asia. It is also a Navaho religous symbol which was quite commonly used by them pre-WW II. In fact someone acctually published a book about the US west in the late 1930s that had on the cover a number of Navaho Swastikas. During WW I i have seen photos of German, French and even one british aircraft with Swastikas painted on them. i think there is at least one British warship that had this on there ships crest. During WW I i believe the US 45th infantry division had a Swastika as its division insignia. They changed it when the division was reactivated during WW II. the Finnish air force had the sawastika as its insignia until 1945. The Latvian or Lithuianian air force also used it as a national insignia until 1940 when they were overrun by the USSR. I hope this is of some help.

[Helen]

... The Detroit-based K-R-I-T Motor Car Company also used the swastika as its emblem until 1915. I've seen a picture of Tsar Nicholas II and some Americans near a car with a swastika as an emblem in Russia during WWI; it was posted somewhere else on this forum, about two or three years ago.

[TimM]

Interesting what the swastika stood for, before the Nazis corrupted it forever.  Alexandra would have been horrified indeed.

[clockworkgirl21]

I am not a fan of N&A. Nicholas may have later regretted his approval of exiling Jews from their homes (maybe being exiled from his own home made him consider how it felt), but I think the facts of the Holocaust would have been abhorrent to him and Alexandra. It takes a real sociopath to not be offended by that, and N&A didn't fit that profile.

[TimM]

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[JamesAPrattIII]

I must point out that anti-Semitism was widespread in Eastern Europe pre-WW II. WW I seems to have made worse. In western Europe France had trouble with both with the pre WW I Dreyfus affair and there were a couple of between the world wars scandles involving Jews that didn't help matters. In the USSR Stalin was a anti-Semite and was getting ready for a second holocaust when he died. His successor  Nikita Khrushchev, according to the book "Stalin Court of the red Tsar" was a fanatical Stalinist terrorist. In 1937 given a quota of 50,000 people to shoot he had 55,741 shot! he ruled the Ukarine from 1939-1948 with a iron fist (to put it mildly). He was an extreme anti-Semite as well. He said after he was ousted from power "I'm up to my elbows in blood". Then there was in June 1962 the strike against higher food prices in Novocherassk where Soviet troops and police shot hundreds and jailed many more and there was no mention of it in the Soviet press of the day. We will probably never know the full story of what happened.
 As for his successor Leonoid Brezhenev he was an anti-Semite as well. During his rule there was plenty of anti-Semitic literature to be found in Soviet bookstores from what I understand. Note; nothing got sold in those bookstores unless it passed the censor or else. Jews were also subjected to discrimination as well during this time. Besides being with Khrushchev in the Ukaraine during thie 1945-50 period in 1950-52 he was the rular of Moldavia USSR. There he brought in collective farming. One wonders how many people he had jailed exiled or shot in the process.
I hope this is of some interest.

[feodorovna]

Besides being found inexcavations at troy and Rome. As well as in Inca graves. The Swastika is a buddist religous symbol that is still used today in Asia. It is also a Navaho religous symbol which was quite commonly used by them pre-WW II. In fact someone acctually published a book about the US west in the late 1930s that had on the cover a number of Navaho Swastikas. During WW I i have seen photos of German, French and even one british aircraft with Swastikas painted on them. i think there is at least one British warship that had this on there ships crest. During WW I i believe the US 45th infantry division had a Swastika as its division insignia. They changed it when the division was reactivated during WW II. the Finnish air force had the sawastika as its insignia until 1945. The Latvian or Lithuianian air force also used it as a national insignia until 1940 when they were overrun by the USSR. I hope this is of some help.

I can't say how true it is, but I was once told that the original swastilka was a religious symbol of love, peace and harmony. Hitler, when he took the symbol for his own purposes not only reversed the meaning of its symbolism, he also reversed the way it faced.

[Lady Macduff]

You are certainly right about the swastika. At the time Alexandra used it it had only positive connotations, but those have been all but obliterated by the Nazis. Modern scholars can easily fall into the trap of thinking that since she was so fond of the swastika she must have been anti-Semitic. A similar problem happened with Clara Bow, who once posed for a picture with a swastika on her hat.

Something that's been bothering me for the past week. I know this thread is about Alexandra and Hitler, but what would she have thought of Russia's newly implemented anti-gay legislation?

[EmHarms]

I really agree with most of the opinions in this thread.  Nicholas & Alexandra had a less than favorable view of Judaism, but as devoutly religious people who espoused compassion, I think they would have been just completely horrified and disgusted by the Holocaust.  I'm inclined to believe they would've viewed Hitler as more or less no better than Stalin, a revolutionary usurper.

[edubs31]

Something that's been bothering me for the past week. I know this thread is about Alexandra and Hitler, but what would she have thought of Russia's newly implemented anti-gay legislation?

You need context for this also. I'm guessing given her conservative traditionalist set of values she may have agreed with Putin's legislative gay bashing. Alexandra certainly was familiar with homosexuality and homosexuals as there were several members of her extended family known to be gay. I've always admired the imperial family and broader Russian aristocracy of the era for holding fairly liberal and accepting views on homosexuality. But surely there were limits on what was to be deemed acceptable.

If N&A had felt the fabric of their society was being threatened by gays and gay culture I don't think it's a stretch to believe they too would have taken measures (or acquiesced to certain measures) to deal with the issue. Their views on homosexuals, had being openly gay been more prevalent during their period, probably would have been quite similar to their view on Jews; ambivalent, suspicious, and threatened, but not filled with hatred.

[TimM]

Two years ago, edubs31 said this:

You should keep writing "Days" Tim. I know it's less entertaining without a writing partner (and since I'm working on my own little project I'm unable to be of service to you for now), but little by little you could probably make your way along and up through the 30s to WW2.

Of course, Days is back.  Tess aka Wakas appeared in early 2014 and became my new writing partner.  We've been doing it even since.

[davidov]

A lot of people have made reference to a modern, post-war perspective of Hitler, but AF's initial impressions of Hitler would have been of the populist leader, I think she'd have been far more inspired by his virulent opposition to socialism, then his anti-Semitism. 

If, in a hypothetical world, AF had gone into exile, and lived into the 40's, she'd have probably been living in Britain, where many of the elite were in favour of Hitler, prior to the war, and naturally conservative, she'd probably have shared these views. It is possible that her perception of Germany may have changed also, she could even have been living in Hesse, depending on her circumstances. AF tended to look at Germany from the perspective of a nation ruled by a man they despised personally and politically. After the Weimar years, she may have looked at her home more favourably, especially since they were able to retain their properties. Links made by the house of Hesse during this period between the House of Savoy, and the Nazi party memberships, may also have increased her favourable views of Hitler. AF was also undemocratic, to say the least, and charmed by symbols and ideology; many things would have appealed to her about Nazi Germany.

However, these would have gone right out the window once Hitler made his early treaty with Stalin, the rest of the war, including his horrific invasion of Russia, would only have served to horrify her. In spite of being an anti Semite, married to a man who ruled over the pograms, the final solution, and their methods, would have disturbed her greatly.  She'd also have been hysterical about their extermination of the disabled, in particular children, as she had a preoccupation with giving care.

I also feel that as soon as Britain entered into a war with Germany, she'd have fallen back into her old anti-germanic boots.

[edubs31]

In your first paragraph you seem to echo some of my sentiments Davisov, so naturally I agree with you. After that I'm not as inclined to take as harsh a view on N&A and their perceived anti-semitism. But you can definitely argue that point.

She'd also have been hysterical about their extermination of the disabled, in particular children, as she had a preoccupation with giving care.

And an excellent point you make here. Could anyone truly imagine Alexandra - no matter what you believe her views on Jews as a group to be - approving of the separation of families and extermination of children? The Holocaust would have horrified her.

Had she lived to see it I think Alexandra would have been extremely outspoken about her harsh feelings toward Hitler and his regime. And, as you also pointed out, once her former allies from the First World War lined up against Germany there is no doubt in mind that she would have been completely supportive of the Nazi's defeat.