Author Topic: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures  (Read 13305 times)

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Offline vagabonds02

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Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« on: April 07, 2013, 10:52:22 AM »
First I would like to say what a fantastic resource this site is!! I have looked till my eyes are strained over the past two to three weeks. I have photos of a couple of my wife's ancestors like apparently a lot of family historians looking for help. Here are links to a couple more. I have kind of figured out that the 1st one is what looks to be a Hussar uniform, love that even the pants have scroll work on them. But can find no markings on any kind to identify anything about the uniform. I know the person was what we call here in the US a German from Russia. They were both born in the Kherson Region out NW of Odessa in a town called Johannesthal in the Ukraine. We figure the possible Hussar uniform was taken about 1891 to 1895 area. The second picture was probably taken about 1899 or later. The person in the Hussar uniform came to the US in about 1903 area and died in South Dakota in 1952, he was born in 1870. The other uniform we have much less info about. As far as we know he never came to the US nor did his father. He was born about 1878 or 1879 so that is why we figure the picture was taken about 1899 or later. I have also figured out from this site he is probably and NCO with the 3 white stripes on the shoulder boards and from the cap device he is in the 3rd something? I see his collar was multi color and see some design on his shoulder boards but haven't figured that out. Here are the links:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vagabonds02/8591494857/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vagabonds02/8592598052/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vagabonds02/8591500857/in/photostream/
Since I don't read Russian I have no idea what anything says on the front or back of either photo. I do know who wrote the english on the back tho!
So would really appreciate all the wonderful help all of you very knowledgeable people are so kind to give out! Mike? Daniel? Lisa? and any other of the experts I have seen writing info to other ignorant newbies like myself! I really do think its great you take your time to freely disseminate your volumes of knowledge you all have. So thank you in advance for any or all help.
Mike
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 11:15:22 AM by Forum Admin »

Offline Mike

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2013, 08:13:25 AM »
The first guy is indeed a Hussar. An expert might even say of which regiment - by his tunic and trousers colors. Do you want me to post the photo on a Russian uniform forum?
The second soldier is a senior NCO. I'd love to look at a much larger scans of his right shoulder board and cap device - where what you've thought to be "3" is apparently Russian letter "З" = "Z", the first letter of the word "За ..." meaning "For ...". 

Offline vagabonds02

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2013, 06:23:09 PM »
Ah thank you so much Mike!! I was beginning to wonder that 105 people had viewed my message and no one had answered!? Yes I would love it if you could post it for someone else too look too. I have wondered for years all about them being in the military when most of them were Mennonites. It just didn't make sense. Let me see if I can get a better crop of just the hat device and the shoulder boards. You had already helped me a little by helping others. I especially liked the one about the guy from Brazil and his family, fascinating. Also the one about the general too that you all knew that much history about a single individual! Wow was I in awe! I am sorry but I do not know the color of the Hussar uniform. I also have no idea if it ended up over here either as he did. I can try tomorrow but will try and get something more legible on Sunday and re-post them then or on Monday.
The senior NCO what was his rank called with that many little white stripes? What does the stuff hanging from the little chain attached to his top hidden tunic button mean or is it not clear enough to speculate on? Again thanks for the reply.

Mike

Offline Mike

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2013, 02:05:12 AM »
Jacob is pictured as a First Sergeant [starshiy unter-ofitser] of 54th His Majesty Tzar of Bulgaria's Infantry Regiment, stationed in Kishinev and commanded, at that time, by Colonel Alexander-Carl Baron von Heiking. The award device on his cap says "For Sevastopol 1854, 1855" [За Севастополь 1854, 1855]. The chain and the token belong to Jacob's pocket watch.

Offline vagabonds02

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2013, 06:10:09 AM »
Oh wow very cool! Can you read the Russian on the front and back of the picture? Does it give a place of the photographer or where his studio was located? Were First sergeants like they were here in this country at the same time, that is, the ones who really ran the troops around or was it different in the Imperial Army? Oh yeah were there higher ranked NCOs or was that the highest? Was he a 1st Sergeant of a company or is that regimental rank?
Well again a very big THANK YOU!!!!! The information is indeed a bunch to add to the knowledge of the family tree. I have to run now but will attempt to get a better enlargement of the device and shoulder board tomorrow.
Cool!

Mike

Offline Mike

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2013, 07:01:23 AM »
The printed text in Russian is the photographer Reichmann's atelier address etc. in Kishinev, which fits the regiment's location.
To better understand the First Sergeant's place in the command hyerarchy, this is the list of infantry non-commissioned ranks:
Private -> Corporal -> Second Sergeant -> First Sergeant -> Sergeant Major -> Sub-Ensign.
In infantry units, there were usually 4 First Sergeants per company of 235 men, 75 per regiment of 4245 men. For a soldier drafted from a non-priviledged class of population, it was a hardly attainable and highly esteemed rank. In the wartime, many First Sergeants and Sergeant Majors were promoted to the first CO rank, the Ensign.
There's no need to further enlarge the pictures. 

Offline vagabonds02

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2013, 04:43:44 PM »
Again, WOW!! Thanks Mike. You have really made my month or even 2013. I have wanted to know about those uniforms for many years to no avail. Do you have a place I can go to see a clear picture of the cap device and shoulder board of Jacob? Just so you know, a little history of me. I am a five generation military person, my gggrandfather and ggrandfather were in the Civil War, my grandfather was in the Spanish American War and my father was in WWII Korea and Vietnam. I was in the Air Force during Vietnam. Worked on Minuteman Missile electronics in North Dakota. I am also a re-enactor. I have done a Scout for an 1870s Indian Wars group, western fur trade of the 1820s and am currently portraying a 1750s French Soldat in the French and Indian War. So I have studied some military history over the years. But the group of you on this site are very impressive with your wealth of knowledge and you gracious way of dispensing it.
Well let me know if you get an answer for me on your other site on the Hussar uniform, I await on the edge of my chair!
Again and I can't thank you enough - Thank you.

Mike

Offline Mike

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2013, 10:23:37 AM »
Quite an impressive military family of yours! My grandfather and father were both officers in the Soviet Army. I myself was a Soviet reserve officer and later an Israeli reserve soldier.
Here're two images relevant to Jacob:
First Sergeant's shoulder board (colors might vary): http://russiamilitaria.ru/uploads/post-238-1289390413_thumb.jpg
Cap award strip for Sevastopol: http://cossac-awards.narod.ru/Lenta/Sevastopol1.jpg
Still no comments on the Hussar.

Offline Mike

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2013, 12:08:17 PM »
UPD: Christian Delzer was a private in the Life-Guards Grodnensky Hussar Regiment, stationed in Warsaw.

Offline vagabonds02

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2013, 04:17:33 PM »
Mike you have astounded me totally again!!! Not only have you patiently answered my questions and made me really excited about both of the pictures, but now you have just knocked me down. If anyone would have said to me that I would ever speak to a Soviet officer I would have waved them off as crazy. This is the neatest thing ever. It is way beyond great! What level of officers were your grandfather and father and what rank did you attain? How long were you in the Soviet Army and what in the world got you to be in the Israeli Army???  Where do you now live? oh wow if you can't tell this is so exciting!! What is your actual name? Sorry I know this is off topic but I don't care I just think this is great!
I'm sorry but I have to ask you two more questions. I see there is a faint design on Jacob's shoulder board what does it designate? I also had noticed his collar looked like it was three different colors, is it and what does that mean?
Thanks you so much for the pictures of his cap device and his stripes on his shoulder boards.
I was in the Air Force from 1968 till 1972 working on the electronics of the Minuteman Missile and was just a Staff Sargent when I got out. My older brother was in Air Force from 1962 till 1968 working on cryptographic machines in the Pentagon he got out a Staff Sargent like myself. My father got out a LT Colonel from the Air Force and was mostly in Air Rescue. He went in in 1944 and got out in 1972, that is how he was in WWII and Korea and Vietnam all three. My wife was in awe the first time she ever saw him and he was in his Class A Blues dress uniform with braid and silver and ribbons and lighting strikes on his hat etc... She told me later she was a little afraid of him. I told her good thinking!
Do you have good pictures of your Grandfather and Father? Yourself?

Mike

Offline Mike

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2013, 01:46:46 PM »
My grandfather (mother's dad) retired as an Engineering Corps colonel; my dad achieved the rank of Air Force lieutenant-colonel. He was a radar engineer in the Soviet Far East, at the same airbase where President Ford and Brezhnev had met. I've never done an actual service but was commissioned as Railway Corps second lieutenant (res.) upon graduation from a Technology Institute. With time, I was gradually promoted to captain - until emigrated to Israel 25 years ago. Here, the army service being mandatory for all capable men and young unmarried women, I've done a short service as a private in a Home Front unit and then relieved for good. My two daughters have served in the army, and their husbands are reserve officers.
Here're dad and me aged 11:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_OGVZRyHpbd0qFZzJPwb3ccK8lxFr2V8oTKDRELlBL7GDn-3DcwHEbp7jDD93rxMWAK7m--8soSoLxrN9R5CnoIdzgWtdrzDPruVMgLCD8jj

Offline vagabonds02

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2013, 02:21:04 PM »
Hey Mike,
The link would not let me go in, said it was forbidden. Also I forgot the link in the private message I sent to you and it really doesn't matter so here is the link.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vagabonds02/8674978647/in/photostream/
Read the private message first so the pictures will make sense. Sorry about that!
Wow neat about your Grandfather and Dad, my Dad retired as an Air Force Lt Colonel too, Erie huh? As I had said he was a pilot in the Air Rescue service most of the time he was in, I have pictures of most of the planes he flew too while he was in the Air Force. Not the actual planes but pictures of the same types of aircraft. I do have a few of the ones he actually flew too. He flew 17 different aircraft in his lifetime including the one he built all by himself after he retired. I'm not working right now but am 65 having been married almost 43 years with two sons 34 and 36. Capitan is a prestigious rank by the way reserve or not!!
Oh yeah your English is perfect, did you study it for a long time, probably better than mine.

Mike

Offline Mike

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2013, 03:13:49 PM »
Please try this:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4s8oP0AqJILYjhiYTI2NzAtNjY2YS00MzU1LThkZjEtODc1MTNiYTViZmQ2/edit?usp=sharing
Your pics are great, especially those from the gunnery school and along the PT-17. Do you know we have one - still flying! - at the Israeili AF museum?

Offline vagabonds02

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2013, 07:11:12 AM »
Wow nice picture of you and your Dad! Is he still with us? I have a picture of my Dad in uniform and my older brother and I have lots of pictures of my Dad and myself but sadly not one with Dad in uniform. When I went into the Air Force in 1968 at the swearing in ceremony any officer can swear you in so my father swore me into the air Force. The Stars and Stripes newspaper photographer was there and took our picture and we even got a copy of the paper with the picture but somewhere along the way I have lost it somehow. My Dad passed away in 1996 so he has been gone quite a while and my Mom in 2003.
Just for comparison what does the rank insignia look like on you Father's shoulder board? I see the wings with a propeller on his lapel is very similar to the cadet wings when my father first went in the service. I can't see all of the medals he has what are the five I can see? The two on the left of the picture look the same? Oh yeah what color is everything? I can see different shades on his shoulder boards and on his collar where the wings are and it looks as if the shirt is different than the jacket? Cool picture!
The picture of the PT-17 with my son it is a flying one too. I also have a picture of my younger brother standing next to what looks like the exact same aircraft but it is a different one and he actually got to fly it, but it was after our Father had already died. Dad would have loved to seen that I'm sure. When I was about your age in the picture, 11, I dependents  could go on local flights in military aircraft with their military parent which I used to do a few times. I actually got to fly an SC-54 4 engine Air Rescue aircraft! No take offs or landings but while we were airborne.

Mike

Offline Mike

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Re: Need Help to Identify Imperial Uniform Pictures
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2013, 10:22:41 AM »
We were photographed on some state holiday, because Dad wears his awards - normally he would wear only ribbons. His tunic is dark khaki-green, the lapel tabs are light blue, the shoulder boards and buttons are silver, the stars on shoulder boards (corresponding to his tnen Major's rank) are gold, the pipings are light blue. His lapel emblems are those of the Air Force Engineering Corps: wings with a propeller and enamel red star in the center. The shirt and the necktie are dark green. His awards are: on the right - two Red Star orders and a military academy graduation badge. On the left are medals: For Battle Merits, For Defence of Leningrad, For Victory over Germany, 30 years of the Soviet Army, 40 years of the Soviet Army. Later he received more medals. He died in 1992.