Author Topic: Plaoutine family  (Read 32063 times)

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Offline Превед

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2013, 02:44:20 PM »
Vera de Plaoutine (Plautin) was born at Tsarskoe-Selo on 05 Aug 1869. She died between 1916-17.
She married Serge Denissieff (Denisov). He died in 1926 at Petrograd.
They had five children:
Serge (escaped Russia and served in the British Forces with the name Sergei Denissieff --- must have died during the First World War or shortly afterwards).

If they romanized the name into Denisieff (à la française), mustn't it have been денисев (Denisev) in the original Russian?

The Annuaire published in Petersburg in 1889 spells the name "Denisov".  

That must be another family then, don't you think?
денисов = Denissoff
денисев = Denissieff (with palatalisation of the -s. If we are talking full yodification the name could perhaps also be spelled денисъев?. A quick Google search shows that such a name apparently exists.)

Compare Romanoff versus Romanieff.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 02:55:16 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline BingandNelsonFan

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2013, 02:53:57 PM »
Thanks for all of this info! So, I should be spelling it "Denisev" in English? Of course, I know that there is great room for variation, as I have found Plaoutines with the names of "de Plaoutine" "Plaontine" "Plaoutin" "Plautin" and "Plautine".

The Plaoutines actually lived at 25 Millionaya Street. Looking at Google Maps, you can still see the building and the Arms! It was Vera Plaoutine Denisev's father, Sergei Nikolaivich, who owned the house. It was also the home of Vera's younger brother, Mikhail Sergeivich.

I still have not been able to find anything more on Serge Denissieff (or Denisev). Will post any new info that I find. :)

Offline Превед

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2013, 03:04:23 PM »
Thanks for all of this info! So, I should be spelling it "Denisev" in English?

That really depends on what the Russian original turns out to be and how phonetic you want to go. денисев is pronounced /dʲ ɪ 'nʲ i sʲ ɪ f / in Russian. денисов would be /dʲ ɪ 'nʲ i sʲ ə f/. The English equivalent would be Tennyson. :-)

денисев = Denissieff (with palatalisation of the -s. If we are talking full yodification the name could perhaps also be spelled денисъев?.

Seems the correct term is "iotation".
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 03:33:28 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2013, 03:56:30 PM »
Voilà: Two major-generals from the Napoleonic Wars called Денисьев: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2 No information on their descendants, though.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 04:01:26 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline BingandNelsonFan

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2013, 04:02:20 PM »
Thanks for all of this info! So, I should be spelling it "Denisev" in English?

That really depends on what the Russian original turns out to be and how phonetic you want to go. денисев is pronounced /dʲ ɪ 'nʲ i sʲ ɪ f / in Russian. денисов would be /dʲ ɪ 'nʲ i sʲ ə f/. The English equivalent would be Tennyson. :-)

денисев = Denissieff (with palatalisation of the -s. If we are talking full yodification the name could perhaps also be spelled денисъев?.

Seems the correct term is "iotation".

Voilà: Two major-generals called Денисьев: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2

Thanks! I am making notes of all these variations and searching for all. I cannot find what Serge Denissieff (husband of Vera Plaoutine) did for a living or career. He may have been in the military. It does appear that he died of pneumonia in Russia in 1926.

Thanks for the help!

Offline Превед

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2013, 04:04:59 PM »
You are welcome! Detective work is fun!

Arms of the noble Денисьев family in the General Armorial of the Noble Families of the All-Russian Empire: http://gerbovnik.ru/arms/586.html
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 04:11:14 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2013, 04:11:56 PM »
Wikipedia: Денисьевы

PS Денисьевы = the plural of Денисьев

PS if you need to type Russian - great tool: http://russian.typeit.org/
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 04:31:33 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline BingandNelsonFan

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2013, 04:25:33 PM »
Fabulous! That website looks like just what I need. I don't think that my Google Translate button has ever had this much of a workout in one afternoon! ;)

It certainly does look like that is their name.

Would it help to know that it looks like their daughter, Elena, married someone named Kyril Arenfelt. That spelling is rough, so I'm not exactly sure what the name is. Sorry.

Offline Превед

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2013, 04:43:16 PM »
Would it help to know that it looks like their daughter, Elena, married someone named Kyril Arenfelt. That spelling is rough, so I'm not exactly sure what the name is. Sorry.

Interesting. I would presume it was a Baltic German family (Russian first name + German territorial last name from a small village in Lower Saxony), but can't find any trace of any A(h)renfeld(t) family in Russian. There is a Dano-Norwegian officer family called Arenfeldt.
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline BingandNelsonFan

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2013, 04:51:13 PM »
Interesting. I would presume it was a Baltic German family (Russian first name + German territorial last name from a small village in Lower Saxony), but can't find any trace of any A(h)renfeld(t) family in Russian. There is a Dano-Norwegian officer family called Arenfeldt.

May well be that. They seem to have settled in Paris at some point. Their daughter was Helene. It also looks like Kyril escaped Russia and went to Poland at the time of the Revolution.

Offline Превед

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2013, 05:43:20 PM »
Hm, these A(h)renfeld(t)s seem elusive: I see that one Freiin / Baroness Wilhelmine von Ahrenfeld married a Prince Batthyány-Strattmann in 1828 and a certain Lucy Ahrenfeldt (described as an author and an American heiress of Scandinavian origin -  * Paris 25.04.1861 + Perugia 28.09.1926) who married a Count Uexküll-Gyllenband, of the Württembergian branch of the well-known Baltic family.
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline BingandNelsonFan

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2013, 05:55:43 PM »
Just for fun, here is another elusive one:

Colonel Bernard Ernest Jule(s) de Koetteritz.
He was in the service of the Russian Imperial Guard. He married Emma Bruce in Italy on 18 Oct 1849.
He was the son of a General de Koetteritz who lived at Leipzig, Brandenburg, Germany. I believe that he is going to have been born Bernhard Von Koetteritz in 1807 (at or near Brandenburg (Havel), Brandenburg, Preußen, Germany), with his parents being Con Koetteritz and Juliane. Not sure about that, though.

Do you see any reference to him? I have been completely unable to find anything but a document from a visit to England in the 1840s.

Offline Превед

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2013, 06:42:17 PM »
LOL, no, but he must have left a strong impression because in a recent Russian movie "Смеющийся человек"  (The Smiling Man) the name Фриц Кёттериц (Fritz Kötteritz) is apparently used as a typical German army name!

Very sloppy to have so little trace of this union, when the father of the bride was a professional (sinecurial?) Genealogist (of the Order of St Patrick)!
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 06:43:50 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Превед

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2013, 07:00:30 PM »
Wikipedia: Денисьевы

Correction:
Now I see that Wikipedia spells it Денисьев (Denisev / Denisseff) with a soft sign (ь) and not денисъев (Denisyev / Denissieff) with a hard sign (ъ). Our theory is thus less solid. But it has to be said that confusion can easily arise in a historical context, as the hard sign was used a lot more before the Revolution, while it's quite rare nowadays, because, if I understand correctly, all final consonants (including before suffixes -ев?) were marked with the soft or hard sign. Perhaps the spelling Денисьев signified something else (iotation instead of obvious palatalisation) before the Revolution?
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 07:05:35 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline BingandNelsonFan

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Re: Plaoutine family
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2013, 07:23:45 PM »
LOL, no, but he must have left a strong impression because in a recent Russian movie "Смеющийся человек"  (The Smiling Man) the name Фриц Кёттериц (Fritz Kötteritz) is apparently used as a typical German army name!

Very sloppy to have so little trace of this union, when the father of the bride was a professional (sinecurial?) Genealogist (of the Order of St Patrick)!

It is quite funny that he is so "lost". Though, I have not seen any reference to a father that is a genealogist. Where is that? I would be most interested! :)

Wikipedia: Денисьевы

Correction:
Now I see that Wikipedia spells it Денисьев (Denisev / Denisseff) with a soft sign (ь) and not денисъев (Denisyev / Denissieff) with a hard sign (ъ). Our theory is thus less solid. But it has to be said that confusion can easily arise in a historical context, as the hard sign was used a lot more before the Revolution, while it's quite rare nowadays, because, if I understand correctly, all final consonants (including before suffixes -ев?) were marked with the soft or hard sign. Perhaps the spelling Денисьев signified something else (iotation instead of obvious palatalisation) before the Revolution?

So, this means that we still are not sure which exact family of Denisevs (or any other form of the name) that we're coming from. I am definitely going to keep working on this and hope that I can find some more info throughout the coming week --- which I will be sure to post!