Author Topic: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans  (Read 56389 times)

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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2013, 11:34:49 PM »
Thanks to everyone for all of the kind comments.  It was really important to try to present another side of the picture with Franz Ferdinand and Sophie, and thankfully Sue had so many ideas and research that it was easier to bring even a shadowy figure like Sophie to life than might be expected.

Offline TimM

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2013, 12:54:55 PM »
It's just too bad that so much of their personal correspondence has been lost.

You two did do a great job with what was available though.
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Offline Greenowl

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2013, 05:40:42 PM »
I'm still not finished reading but I think it is a wonderful book. I have now reached chapter 18 and despite the fact that I know the story so well, the events of 28/06/1914 still have the power to shock me. I have one question concerning the driver of the Archduke's car on that fateful day. On page 199 the name of the driver is stated as Leopold Loyka. Oddly enough, while every other detail fits with what I already knew, this is new. I always understood that the driver of the Archduke's car was called Franz Urban. Unfortunately I cannot recall where I heard it...either in some of the literature about the assassination in Sarajevo or on a visit to Konopischt. However, the name stuck in my mind as my grandfather and great-grandfather were both called Franz Urban, although I have absolutely no reason to believe that my great-grandfather was the same Franz Urban, especially as it was a fairly common name at that time in Bohemia and Moravia....it just seemed like an unusual coincidence. However, it now appears to have been a mistake.

Cheers,
GREENOWL (Monika)

Offline Greg_King

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2013, 11:36:59 PM »
Loyka was named as such in the official program for the day as being the driver of the Archduke and Duchess's motorcar, and although we too had run across Fritz Urban, we asked Professor Wladimir Aichelburg, the man who has written numerous books on them, set up the museum in Artstetten, etc., and he said Loyka, so we figured we were safe in taking his word for it.

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2013, 06:14:40 PM »
Thanks Greg!

It is only a small point but I was curious in view of what I thought was a coincidence with regard to the name. Nevertheless, I am relieved to know that you also came across references to Urban, so it was not just poor research/lack of information on my part. Oddly enough, in much of the literature the driver's name is not mentioned at all. With Leopold Loyka I really have learnt something new!! I only have about two chapters left now, so will be really sorry when I come to the end.

Cheers,
MONIKA

Offline TimM

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2013, 11:31:48 AM »
I see you enjoyed the book, Monika.  I did to, it was great. 

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Offline Greenowl

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2013, 04:26:48 PM »
Yes Tim, I really did. I am sorry that I have almost reached the end. There is so much interesting food for discussion...it is a great pity that the moderators don't move this thread to the Habsburg section, as this does not seem to be an appropriate place to discuss the attitude of Emperor Franz-Joseph, Empress Zita etc. Another topic often discussed in the Franz Ferdinand thread in the Habsburg section is the question of whether the Archduke would have made Sophie Empress when he ascended the throne. I think that this issue is excellently addressed in the book. I was also amazed (indeed shocked) by the actions of Masaryk's wife and daughter. I would never have suspected them of being so petty....as you have no doubt noted, I really enjoyed it and as I said before, it is a shame that it has taken almost a century for such a book to appear.

Cheers,
MONIKA

Offline TimM

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2013, 04:55:59 PM »
It's fitting that the book came out now, as we near the centennial of that tragic event that ending up destroying the world of the 19th Century and bringing in the horrible 20th.
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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2013, 09:53:51 AM »
Yes Tim, I really did. I am sorry that I have almost reached the end. There is so much interesting food for discussion...it is a great pity that the moderators don't move this thread to the Habsburg section, as this does not seem to be an appropriate place to discuss the attitude of Emperor Franz-Joseph, Empress Zita etc. Another topic often discussed in the Franz Ferdinand thread in the Habsburg section is the question of whether the Archduke would have made Sophie Empress when he ascended the throne. I think that this issue is excellently addressed in the book. I was also amazed (indeed shocked) by the actions of Masaryk's wife and daughter. I would never have suspected them of being so petty....as you have no doubt noted, I really enjoyed it and as I said before, it is a shame that it has taken almost a century for such a book to appear.

Cheers,
MONIKA

I am sorry I have not had a chance to read the book yet. Sounds like a fascinating read. I am thinking a lot of this information could have researched  sooner had communism not taken over half of Europe after World War II and so much ended up being covered up, lost, unknown for decades. By 1990, many people who could have shared information with western historians had passed away.
MONIKA, When you mention Masaryk's wife and daughter, are you referring to the President of Czechoslovakia's family after World War I? Does this have something to do with Archduke Franz Ferdinand's family possessions and property in Bohemia being confiscated after World War I?


Offline Greenowl

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2013, 11:29:19 AM »
Yes it does!

I was surprised to read on page 257 that after the Czechoslovak Government confiscated all Habsburg property on 16/06/1919 they did the same with Konopischt, despite the fact that the Hohenbergs were never considered Habsburgs. The children were evicted and only permitted to take one small suitcase each, containing clothes and school books. When they asked if they could take some photograph albums, their request was refused on the grounds that they were now the property of the Czechoslovak state. However, and I quote:- "this did not stop Masaryk's wife and daughter (it does not state which one) from descending on the castle to pilfer its contents. Sophie's furs vanished into Charlotte Masaryk's hands, while her daughter took a finely tooled saddle from the stables that had been the Archduke and the Duchess's last present to Sophie".

I was very surprised, as I always had great respect for Tomas Masaryk. However, it sounds very similar to what happened to the Sudeten Germans after the Second World War as a result of the infamous Benes decree.

Cheers,
GREENOWL (Monika)

Offline TimM

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2013, 04:25:36 PM »
What the new Czechoslovak Government did here was petty and vindictive.  It was pure spite, a "Let's get even with the Habsburg's." thing.  

Never mind that Franz and Sophie's children had nothing to do with the actions of Emperor Franz Josef or anyone that came before him.  

Also, what the heck was Masaryk's wife and daughter doing there?  I'll tell you, they were taking advantage of the situation to steal things that didn't belong to them.  What a couple of petty thieves!  
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Offline Превед

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2013, 05:07:44 PM »
Interesting how this embarrassing little incident makes you think about the complicated loyalties in Central Europe at the time:
Was Masaryk, as a Czech nationalist leader, someone Franz Ferdinand would have received and met before the war? Was it unthinkable that Sophie of Hohenberg would receive Charlotte Garrigue Masaryk, who, unlike her husband, was from quite a wealthy background.
During the war they were after all officially ennemies! That is really strange to consider, that nationalist Czechs, who had been Habsburg subjects for centuries, sympathized with the Allies, including Russia, who was oppressing the Poles worse than Austria was oppressing the Czechs. (Not even mentioning the Hungarians oppressing the Slovaks.)
How Czech were the Hohenbergs? Did they learn to speak Czech? Did Franz Ferdinand and Sophie?

« Last Edit: November 07, 2013, 05:21:06 PM by Превед »
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Offline grandduchessella

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2013, 10:21:38 PM »
I have this book in my hot little hands right now. I ordered a copy for the library and, since I'm the cataloger, pounced on it first! :) 

I'll be leaving the library in January but I definitely wanted to get this book in as I'm leaving very detailed instructions on a year-long WW1 display to commemorate the 100th anniversary. There have been a number of books published recently on this rather shamefully overlooked war (shamefully overlooked considering its far-reaching consequences).

I've been eagerly looking forward to this since I first heard of it and Greg King never disappoints me and Sue Woolmans is a very knowledgeable historian. It's rather good to see a non-Romanov, non-Tudor historical royal book out from a mainstream publisher.
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Offline Greg_King

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2013, 11:21:16 PM »
Sophie spoke Czech; the children were tutored in Czech as well.  I believe FF had Czech lessons but he was never a good linguist, so I think the efforts proved negligible.

Gabriel Antonio

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2013, 12:09:20 AM »
Yes it does!

I was surprised to read on page 257 that after the Czechoslovak Government confiscated all Habsburg property on 16/06/1919 they did the same with Konopischt, despite the fact that the Hohenbergs were never considered Habsburgs. The children were evicted and only permitted to take one small suitcase each, containing clothes and school books. When they asked if they could take some photograph albums, their request was refused on the grounds that they were now the property of the Czechoslovak state. However, and I quote:- "this did not stop Masaryk's wife and daughter (it does not state which one) from descending on the castle to pilfer its contents. Sophie's furs vanished into Charlotte Masaryk's hands, while her daughter took a finely tooled saddle from the stables that had been the Archduke and the Duchess's last present to Sophie".

I was very surprised, as I always had great respect for Tomas Masaryk. However, it sounds very similar to what happened to the Sudeten Germans after the Second World War as a result of the infamous Benes decree.

Cheers,
GREENOWL (Monika)

Monika, You were reading my mind- the comparison of what I thought must have happened with the Masaryks taking what legally belonged to Franz Ferdinand's children in 1919 to what happened to the Sudetan Germans after the Second World War. I think of all the money Konopiste has brought to the Czech economy- and so many other legacies of Austria and the Habsburgs, Hohenbergs, etc. Not to mention old libraries full of priceless manuscripts and books that are most definitely NOT written in Czech, etc. etc. The list is truly endless.

As for Benes and his truly infamous decree-this is what I would say to him if I could:
First of all, you evicted (and killed- don't you dare lie and say at least 200,000 of them were not killed) three million Austrians whose ancestors had been living here for 700 years and had been subjects of the Habsburg Empire since 1526 just like your ancestors. Hungarian Burgenland was allowed to vote to join the new Austrian Republic in 1919 while the Bohemian (Sudetan) borderlands, especially those "Austrian Germans" populated areas directly north and adjacent to the new "international border" were not allowed to vote the same for their future destiny. Since you must want all vestiges of Austrian and German heritage out of your country, Mr. Benes, be sure to start by removing the St. Nicholas Church at the end of the Charles Bridge in Prague and then countless other buildings and artistic treasures farther up the hill behind it. Not to mention the same kinds of beautiful buildings and treasures created by artisans and craftsmen over the centuries in many smaller cities all over Bohemia. And of course, Mr. Benes, the great musical heritage of Bohemia and Moravia over the centuries has nothing at all to do with these three million kicked out Austrians as probably none of them could have been musicians, performers, teachers, instrument makers, or mentors to anyone right?, And of course the Habsburg presence had nothing to do wiith this musical legacy either.
 I wonder what persons from history such the great Bohemian diplomat Kaunitz or composers Mozart (who wrote the "Prague Symphony) or Beethoven (whose student Archduke Rudolph was a prince of the church in Bohemia) would have had to say to you Mr. Benes about your decree if they could have met you face to face to tell you.