Author Topic: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans  (Read 57093 times)

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Offline Превед

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2013, 10:12:52 AM »
Sophie spoke Czech; the children were tutored in Czech as well.  I believe FF had Czech lessons but he was never a good linguist, so I think the efforts proved negligible.

Interesting, thanks for the answer. I do think it's quite surprising if he didn't speak Czech, both because of his political position (both as heir and as a pro-Slav federalist) and because of the location of his estate. Too bad he became heir as an adult, when his limited ability to learn languages was severely reduced. What about Hungarian, was his dislike of Hungary due to language lessons, just as with his dislike for Italy?

Both extremes are equally sad, because Czech history truly is bilingual, in a synthetic, organic way that is rather unique. Sudeten or Austrian Bohemians who didn't speak Czech appear like foreigners to their own country to me and any educated Czechs who don't speak German seem like a foreigner to his own history. Only those who know both can truly understand the genius of the Czech nation.



Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline TimM

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2013, 11:30:47 AM »
Quote
You were reading my mind- the comparison of what I thought must have happened with the Masaryks taking what legally belonged to Franz Ferdinand's children in 1919


As I said, here they were no better than thieves.  What they were doing here was looting, no doubt about it.   I have no respect for thieves and looters.

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Offline Greenowl

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2013, 12:10:48 PM »
What I don't understand is that as far back as 1919, Edvard Beneš suggested a "transfer" (I think that was the term he used) of the non-ethnic population of the first Republic....he mainly had Germans and Hungarians in mind....which was rejected by Masaryk (Naš taticku Masaryku), thus it seems extremely odd that he allowed his own wife and daughter to act in such a manner, especially as his wife was from a comfortable background and must have had her own furs. The late President Havel did propose some limited form of restitution and made a public apology in which he described the forced expulsion of the Sudeten Germans after the Second World War as "an act of revenge". However, this made him unpopular and the Parliament refused to act on his recommendation.

On the subject of language: to add to what Greg said, most of the later generations of Habsburgs could converse (at least to some extent) in the various languages of the empire. Crown Prince Rudolf, for example, spoke fluent Czech (source Hamann) and one notable exception with regard to Czech was Empress Elisabeth, who refused to learn the language because her hated mother-in-law (and aunt) was so fond of the Czech lands. Of course the Empress was fluent in Hungarian (and Greek) and brought up her youngest daughter Marie-Valerie to be bilingual (Hungarian and German). She insisted that Franz-Joseph should only speak Hungarian with the child, which he did to keep the Empress happy. Marie-Valerie wrote in her diary that she would have much preferred her father to speak to her in German.
From personal experience, most of the Sudeten Germans had some knowledge of Czech but obviously the degree of fluency varied.

I found an interesting documentary on You Tube the other night about the visit of the late Archduke Otto to Sarajevo in 2004 (90th. anniversary of the assassination). In the interview he was most positive about Archduke Franz Ferdinand and his plans for the empire and also mentioned that his (Archduke Otto's) father (Emperor Karl) had an excellent relationship with his uncle (Archduke Franz Ferdinand).

Offline Превед

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2013, 04:35:49 PM »
I think of all the money Konopiste has brought to the Czech economy

You sure about that? It costs a lot to keep such places as Konopiště / Konopischt and I've never heard of anybody other than royalty buffs going there. I don't think it draws crowds like for example Karlštejn.

She insisted that Franz-Joseph should only speak Hungarian with the child, which he did to keep the Empress happy. Marie-Valerie wrote in her diary that she would have much preferred her father to speak to her in German.
Oh, how interesting it gets when a dysfunctional family rules a dysfunctional country.
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline TimM

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2013, 04:43:18 PM »
Quote
I think of all the money Konopiste has brought to the Czech economy

Doesn't justify them kicking FF and Sophie's children out into the cold like that.

Of course, this has happened before.  Arlington House in Virginia was owned by Robert E. Lee and his family.  When the Civil War began, the Union moved in and seized the property.  After the war, it became Arlington National Cemetery.  The Lee family never got it back, although they later received compensation from the U.S. Government.

I think FF and Sophie's descendants are still waiting for the Czech Government to cough up compensation for the theft of their family home.
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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2013, 04:54:28 PM »

Both extremes are equally sad, because Czech history truly is bilingual, in a synthetic, organic way that is rather unique. Sudeten or Austrian Bohemians who didn't speak Czech appear like foreigners to their own country to me and any educated Czechs who don't speak German seem like a foreigner to his own history. Only those who know both can truly understand the genius of the Czech nation.





German is very widely spoken in the Czech Republic, and not just by the "educated". It's the lingua franca of tourism, especially in North Bohemia where a knowledge of German was also necessary in the Communist years, because people barred from the "west" nevertheless went back and forth to Saxony so often (one guy told me recently "the Germans had better shoes, so we always bought our shoes in Dresden"). It's kind of par for the course that the complex inheritance is acknowledged and taken for granted there....I mean, Karel Schwarzenberg was all but elected President this year. His family is a Franconian Catholic one transplanted to Bohemia after the Hussite wars to replace the Rozmberks - who'd become Protestant and offended the Emperor - and there were actually some flabby attempts in the election to make capital of this. But who would really care? Most people just live their lives and make a living and try to get on with their neighbours. Karel himself has renounced claims to his family's former estates (his sister is suing him for that) and simply follows his own career as a politician. I don't always like his politics, but I admire his real-life engagement with his ancestral home. Perhaps his hidden agenda is that he'd take the castles back if he became President but until it happens, who can say?

If you visit the former German-speaking lands on the border, you'll find them haunted.  There are websites, memorials, place names to the former inhabitants - whose kids often go on holiday there. Perhaps I am more sensitive about this stuff than many people, because I like history, but it's what I feel. And there are films as well - "Alois Nebel" is a recent one which captures the spirit of the border villages in Moravian Silesia and their unspoken history. Also recommend Franticek Vlacil's "Adelheid", though that's a bit heavier and sadder, because it was closer in time.
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #66 on: November 08, 2013, 04:55:54 PM »
I think of all the money Konopiste has brought to the Czech economy

You sure about that? It costs a lot to keep such places as Konopiště / Konopischt and I've never heard of anybody other than royalty buffs going there. I don't think it draws crowds like for example Karlštejn.



I seriously doubt it even supports itself.
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

Offline Превед

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2013, 04:57:01 PM »
Quote
I think of all the money Konopiste has brought to the Czech economy
Doesn't justify them kicking FF and Sophie's children out into the cold like that.
Oh, but Gabriel Antonio is of the same opinion as you. (Though I think you and he might disagree on the eviction of the Sudeten Germans, many of whom either supported Hitler or were Communists and therefore considered a threat / traitors to the First Czechoslovakian Republic.)

Arlington House in Virginia was owned by Robert E. Lee and his family.  When the Civil War began, the Union moved in and seized the property.  After the war, it became Arlington National Cemetery.  The Lee family never got it back, although they later received compensation from the U.S. Government.
But sure it can't be illegal to confiscate the property of militant terrorists like Lee, who led an armed insurrection against a democratic government?

I think FF and Sophie's descendants are still waiting for the Czech Government to cough up compensation for the theft of their family home.
Indeed Sophie Hohenberg has a website where she claims compensation.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 05:08:23 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2013, 05:08:50 PM »
I think of all the money Konopiste has brought to the Czech economy

You sure about that? It costs a lot to keep such places as Konopiště / Konopischt and I've never heard of anybody other than royalty buffs going there. I don't think it draws crowds like for example Karlštejn.



I seriously doubt it even supports itself.

I don't know! On the few occasions that I was there it was full of visitors....once the main carpark was so full that we had to park quite a distance away and walk back. There were three tours on offer: Tour one comprised the south wing with the state rooms, guest rooms, so-called hunting corridor and the shooting range. Tour number two covered the north wing, which is the oldest part of the castle and includes the Crown prince suite, the armoury, chapel, lift, library and the museum of St. George (founded by Franz-Ferdinand and devoted to hunting). Tour three, which is the one I availed of, comprised Franz-Ferdinand's own apartment on the third floor of the castle. It was rather expensive compared to the other tours, although having said that, it took almost an hour and a maximum of only EIGHT guests were allowed per tour. However, it was well worth it, at least in my opinion. Nevertheless, I agree that the upkeep of such a property must be very high and it is only open during the spring and summer months. In contrast, the day I visited Karlštejn it was as good as empty, which admittedly was more peaceful.

Cheers,
GREENOWL (Monika)

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2013, 05:17:28 PM »
(Though I think you and he might disagree on the eviction of the Sudeten Germans, many of whom either supported Hitler or were Communists and therefore considered a threat / traitors to the First Czechoslovakian Republic.)


I was really was not aware that there were many Communists among the Sudeten Germans....they were for the most part extremely Catholic and rightwing, but did vote for the Nazis (unfortunately).

GREENOWL

Offline Превед

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2013, 05:22:39 PM »
I was really was not aware that there were many Communists among the Sudeten Germans....they were for the most part extremely Catholic and rightwing, but did vote for the Nazis (unfortunately).

I might be wrong here. I am neither German nor Czech and this impression comes from reading a book called "Als die Deutschen weg waren", a sequel to a MDR TV documentary about the German post-war expulsion. I seem to remember that the German-speaking parts where the most industrialized in Bohemia (e.g. Gablonz) and that this naturally led to many Communists.

BTW here is an interesting quote from a Sudeten German / Austrian Communist.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2013, 05:57:18 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline TimM

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2013, 05:30:04 PM »
Quote
But sure it can't be illegal to confiscate the property of militant terrorists like Lee, who led an armed insurrection against a democratic government?

You know, there are some places in the South of the U.S. where you'd get your teeth punched out for making such a comment.  General Lee is still regarded as a hero to many in the South.

Robert E. Lee was no terrorist, nor was he leading an insurrection against the U.S. Government.  What happened in that the Southern states had broken away to form their own nation, the Confederate States Of America.  They had their own Congress and President (Jefferson Davies).  the reason the war started was that Fort Sumter refused to surrender to the South and the South fired on it.

The reason Lee ended up fighting for the South was simple, Virginia, his home state, joined the Confederacy.  He thought long and hard about it, before making his decision.  The U.S. Military had been good to him, but he loved his home state first.  Had Virginia gone the other way, Lee would have been fighting for the Union.

Lee may have fought for the losing side, but he certainly wasn't a terrorist.
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Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2013, 05:41:06 PM »
I think of all the money Konopiste has brought to the Czech economy

You sure about that? It costs a lot to keep such places as Konopiště / Konopischt and I've never heard of anybody other than royalty buffs going there. I don't think it draws crowds like for example Karlštejn.



I seriously doubt it even supports itself.

I don't know! On the few occasions that I was there it was full of visitors....once the main carpark was so full that we had to park quite a distance away and walk back. There were three tours on offer: Tour one comprised the south wing with the state rooms, guest rooms, so-called hunting corridor and the shooting range. Tour number two covered the north wing, which is the oldest part of the castle and includes the Crown prince suite, the armoury, chapel, lift, library and the museum of St. George (founded by Franz-Ferdinand and devoted to hunting). Tour three, which is the one I availed of, comprised Franz-Ferdinand's own apartment on the third floor of the castle. It was rather expensive compared to the other tours, although having said that, it took almost an hour and a maximum of only EIGHT guests were allowed per tour. However, it was well worth it, at least in my opinion. Nevertheless, I agree that the upkeep of such a property must be very high and it is only open during the spring and summer months. In contrast, the day I visited Karlštejn it was as good as empty, which admittedly was more peaceful.

Cheers,
GREENOWL (Monika)

Yes, that's what I mean - there are loads of properties which seem to get a LOT of visitors, but don't support themselves, as they cost the earth to run!

Thanks for your posts, Monika - I am trying to reply about Masaryk (I agree with you on various points and have some theories) but got timed out!
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.

Offline Превед

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2013, 05:41:30 PM »
Quote
But sure it can't be illegal to confiscate the property of militant terrorists like Lee, who led an armed insurrection against a democratic government?

You know, there are some places in the South of the U.S. where you'd get your teeth punched out for making such a comment.  General Lee is still regarded as a hero to many in the South.
LOL, perhaps extra hard when I'd add that if I were Lincoln I'd let them have their goddamn enslaving Confederacy with the argument: good riddance!
But civil war is never right. They could have learned something from the passive resistance the descendants of their slaves adopted 100 years later.


Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2013, 05:48:21 PM »
(Though I think you and he might disagree on the eviction of the Sudeten Germans, many of whom either supported Hitler or were Communists and therefore considered a threat / traitors to the First Czechoslovakian Republic.)


I was really was not aware that there were many Communists among the Sudeten Germans....they were for the most part extremely Catholic and rightwing, but did vote for the Nazis (unfortunately).

GREENOWL

I don't know about Communists, but I think there were a considerable number of working class and trade union-driven groups who loathed the Nazis and did their best in the 1930s to come to some sort of settlement with the government in Prague. I've also seen it said that these were the groups who organised the demonstrations in 1919 against being incorporated into Czechoslavakia, and clashed with the police.

Really complicated issue, and hard to know which sources to believe!
Shake your chains to earth like dew
Which in sleep had fallen on you -
Ye are many; they are few.