Author Topic: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans  (Read 57097 times)

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Offline TimM

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #90 on: November 12, 2013, 04:17:30 PM »
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Oh yes, horror of horrors, they had only one castle (Artstetten) left to retreat to!


If they could take eveything they wanted and only took some furs and a saddle, I must say they showed restraint!



Dude, that is SO beside the point.

How would you feel if some strangers came into your house one day and told you to get out.  Furthermore, they told you that you can't take any valued family possessions with you.  Finally, they allow their relatives to come in and help themselves to your belongings?  You wouldn't like that, would you?  Well, neither did FF and Sophie's kids.

Furthermore, the treaty that officially dissolved the Habsburg Empire (St. Germaine) was not yet in effect.  So what the Czechs did here was ILLEGAL.  In my mind, that makes them no better than your common thieves. Stealing things that don't belong to them.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 04:20:08 PM by TimM »
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Offline Превед

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #91 on: November 12, 2013, 04:42:06 PM »
Dude, that is SO beside the point.
How would you feel if some strangers came into your house one day and told you to get out.  Furthermore, they told you that you can't take any valued family possessions with you. Finally, they allow their relatives to come in and help themselves to your belongings?  You wouldn't like that, would you?

If my family had started - and lost - WW1 I think I'd felt doomed.... Would I have wanted to live in a monument to the madness that killed my parents, millions of people and a whole civilization?
On a more practical level I think I'd been among those really accepting, but yet real entitled and obnoxious types, who'd reason that if Konopischt was bought with royal (Este and Habsburg) riches derived from state money (Modenese and Austro-Hungarian, including Czech), I'd have to give it up to the Czech successor state and demand that Austria compensate and entertain me.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 04:44:41 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline TimM

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #92 on: November 12, 2013, 04:57:52 PM »
But they didn't give it up, the Czechs STOLE it from them.  They didn't even wait for the Treaty Of St. Germaine to go into effect, which would have given them some legal wiggle room.

Yet, Masaryk and his band of thieves were not willing to wait.  They couldn't get in there fast enough and help themselves to the Habsburg belongings. 

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Offline Превед

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #93 on: November 12, 2013, 05:06:55 PM »
But they didn't give it up, the Czechs STOLE it from them.  They didn't even wait for the Treaty Of St. Germaine to go into effect, which would have given them some legal wiggle room.

But that is what happens when you, your parents or your great uncle start a war! Never start a war! Because the world will not be the same afterwards. People will learn they can kill and loot without consequences. War changes everything.

But I don't disagree about it being an injustice. Though it's only a drop in a sea of injustice, so the crucial question is: Have the Hohenbergs' loss and expulsion become a symbol of the loss and expulsion of the whole German minority?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 05:23:38 PM by Превед »
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline TimM

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #94 on: November 12, 2013, 07:51:16 PM »
Yeah, I guess it could be.  What was done to all these people was wrong.  No disputing that.
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Offline Превед

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2013, 10:39:31 AM »
My weary and cynical comments were written after watching the first episode of the pioneering German TV series "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter", the first, taboo-breaking German production about WW2 patterned after the American WW2 movies and series where you follow the lives of young soldiers and their friends (nurses and a Jew) up close. It was about the invasion of Russia and truly depressing, as a German WW2 series can't have any of the heroic, patriotic and humanistic optimism that an American WW2 drama after all has.
Берёзы севера мне милы,—
Их грустный, опущённый вид,
Как речь безмолвная могилы,
Горячку сердца холодит.

(Афанасий Фет: «Ивы и берёзы», 1843 / 1856)

Offline TimM

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2013, 11:21:23 AM »
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as a German WW2 series can't have any of the heroic, patriotic and humanistic optimism that an American WW2 drama after all has.

It's easier to root for the Germans of the First World War (All Quiet On The Western Front, for example), because of the leadership behind them.  The Kaiser was nowhere close in the same league of evil that Hitler was.

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Rodney_G.

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #97 on: November 13, 2013, 04:22:17 PM »
My weary and cynical comments were written after watching the first episode of the pioneering German TV series "Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter", the first, taboo-breaking German production about WW2 patterned after the American WW2 movies and series where you follow the lives of young soldiers and their friends (nurses and a Jew) up close. It was about the invasion of Russia and truly depressing, as a German WW2 series can't have any of the heroic, patriotic and humanistic optimism that an American WW2 drama after all has.

Re: your last sentence, Preved... well, not about the ultimate outcome for Germany, obviously, though there were elements in Das Boot that were quite heroic, patriotic, and showing that some  measure  of human feeling remained among German soldiery.  I'm also wondering if at least something could  possibly be produced in the vein of the  fine (I thought) 1984 series Heimat.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 04:31:32 PM by Rodney_G. »

Offline Janet Ashton

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #98 on: November 13, 2013, 05:24:16 PM »
Never start a war! Because the world will not be the same afterwards. People will learn they can kill and loot without consequences. War changes everything.



Let's be clear, though - the 1919 confiscations of estates were not "killing and looting without consequences". Killing and looting - a Bolshevik revolution - was exactly what the Czechoslovak provisional government feared - along with a right-wing resurgence by monarchists and so on. There had been a word war - there were other wars still happening all around. People were starving and angry. As the Provisional government they had every right to take measures to defuse the situation. The Hohenberg children were not really qualified to judge this, because they were children and came from a very sheltered and privileged world, their parents murder notwithstanding. It is natural that when their world was disturbed they thought they were simply being robbed by monsters. How could they appreciate the genuine aspirations of the new leaders?
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Which in sleep had fallen on you -
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Offline Greenowl

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2013, 04:11:21 AM »

Re: your last sentence, Preved... well, not about the ultimate outcome for Germany, obviously, though there were elements in Das Boot that were quite heroic, patriotic, and showing that some  measure  of human feeling remained among German soldiery.  I'm also wondering if at least something could  possibly be produced in the vein of the  fine (I thought) 1984 series Heimat.

I was thinking the same myself..."Heimat" (especially the first part...I was less impressed with the third) was excellent, as was "Das Boot". Another good film was "Lilli Marleen" (hope I got the last title right).

Rodney_G.

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2013, 04:35:20 PM »

Re: your last sentence, Preved... well, not about the ultimate outcome for Germany, obviously, though there were elements in Das Boot that were quite heroic, patriotic, and showing that some  measure  of human feeling remained among German soldiery.  I'm also wondering if at least something could  possibly be produced in the vein of the  fine (I thought) 1984 series Heimat.

I was thinking the same myself..."Heimat" (especially the first part...I was less impressed with the third) was excellent, as was "Das Boot". Another good film was "Lilli Marleen" (hope I got the last title right).

Greenowl, when you refer to "especially the first part... the third", what exactly do you mean? The third episode of the first season, or perhaps an entire third season? I watched "Heimat" on public television( PBS) in the USA and it was not necessarily in 1984, or likely not at the same time as it was broadcast in Germany. There were many episodes, but only one season as I recall. There may have been other seasons (parts) not shown in the USA.

Offline Petr

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #101 on: November 14, 2013, 05:11:51 PM »
I must try to order it as from what I have heard, Gruša takes a very critical look at Beneš, who he described as "a garden gnome" and a failure as he was unable to avert the infamous Munich agreement or the communist take-over.

Given Chamberlin's and Daladier's position I doubt seriously that Beneš would have been able to change what happened at Munich.  Also, tough to avoid the Communist take-over when you are first occupied by the Red Army installing a coaltition government and were basically sold down the river at Yalta and Potsdam.  From  Wikipedia: "Beneš presided over a coalition government, from 1947 headed by Communist leader Klement Gottwald as prime minister. On 21 February 1948, 12 non-Communist ministers resigned to protest Gottwald's refusal to stop the packing of the police with Communists, despite a majority of the Cabinet ordering it to end. Beneš initially refused to accept their resignations and insisted that no government could be formed without the non-Communist parties. However, Gottwald threatened a general strike unless Beneš appointed a Communist-dominated government. Amid fears that civil war was imminent and rumours that the Red Army would sweep in to back Gottwald, Beneš gave way. On 25 February, he accepted the resignations of the non-Communist ministers and appointed a new government in accordance with Gottwald's specifications. It was nominally still a coalition, but was dominated by Communists—in effect, giving legal sanction to a Communist coup d'état. "

Smacks of historical revisionism.
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Offline Greenowl

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #102 on: November 14, 2013, 05:20:54 PM »
I'm afraid this is a bit off-topic but I hope that people won't be offended! The original Heimat series from 1984 follows the life of Maria Simon and covers the years 1919 to 1982. It consists of 11 episodes running to just over 15 hours and depicts how German history affected the Simon family and their community. This was followed by Die Zweite Heimat (Leaving Home) in 1992, which is the story of Maria's youngest son Hermann, who leaves home and makes a new life for himself as a composer in Munich during the 1960s. Heimat 3 (subtitled Chronik einer Zeitenwende — Chronicle of a Time of Change) was released in 2004 and continues Hermann's story in 1989 as he returns to Schabbach and depicts the events of the period from the fall of the Berlin Wall until 2000. There are six episodes running to 11 hours 29 minutes. I have to say that while I really enjoyed the first two series, I found the third disappointing and did not actually watch all of it (I think I had enough after the third episode). Last year, Edgar Reitz (who is now around 80 years old) started filming Die andere Heimat (The other Heimat). This has nothing to do with the previous three "Heimats" and is set in the 19th century. It tells the story of two brothers, their families and friends from the Hunsrück area and their decision to escape from the hunger and poverty by emigrating to Brazil. It was due to be released last month but so far I have heard nothing about it.
Cheers (and apologies)
GREENOWL (MONIKA)

Offline Greenowl

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #103 on: November 14, 2013, 05:42:29 PM »
I have to agree that in view of Chamberlin's and Daladier's position it would have been next to impossible for Beneš to change what happened at Munich without resorting to war, which of course would have led to a massive defeat for Czechoslovakia.  I can also understand why he initially sided with the Communists (after all, the western allies had done nothing to protect Czechoslovakia from Nazi aggression in Munich). However, I think that he later regretted his stance with Gottwald and died shortly after he resigned from (or was forced out of) politics in 1948. What I don't understand and cannot forgive were some of the dreadful speeches he made, urging "all loyal Czechs" to take revenge and kill as many Sudeten Germans as possible. In view of Nazi atrocities (such as Lidice) the atmosphere was "overheated", to say the least, but I don't think such bloodthirsty talk was the answer. Ideally the Nazi elements among the Sudeten Germans should have been rooted out and expelled (or even executed) but the idea of collective guilt is wrong...thousands of (more or less) innocent people, including children and the elderly, lost their homes, possessions and many died or were murdered during the forced expulsions.

Cheers,
GREENOWL (Monika)  
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 05:47:17 PM by Greenowl »

Rodney_G.

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Re: Assassination/Archduke by King and Woolmans
« Reply #104 on: November 14, 2013, 05:59:46 PM »
I'm afraid this is a bit off-topic but I hope that people won't be offended! The original Heimat series from 1984 follows the life of Maria Simon and covers the years 1919 to 1982. It consists of 11 episodes running to just over 15 hours and depicts how German history affected the Simon family and their community. This was followed by Die Zweite Heimat (Leaving Home) in 1992, which is the story of Maria's youngest son Hermann, who leaves home and makes a new life for himself as a composer in Munich during the 1960s. Heimat 3 (subtitled Chronik einer Zeitenwende — Chronicle of a Time of Change) was released in 2004 and continues Hermann's story in 1989 as he returns to Schabbach and depicts the events of the period from the fall of the Berlin Wall until 2000. There are six episodes running to 11 hours 29 minutes. I have to say that while I really enjoyed the first two series, I found the third disappointing and did not actually watch all of it (I think I had enough after the third episode). Last year, Edgar Reitz (who is now around 80 years old) started filming Die andere Heimat (The other Heimat). This has nothing to do with the previous three "Heimats" and is set in the 19th century. It tells the story of two brothers, their families and friends from the Hunsrück area and their decision to escape from the hunger and poverty by emigrating to Brazil. It was due to be released last month but so far I have heard nothing about it.


Cheers (and apologies)
GREENOWL (MONIKA)

 Viele Danke,Monika! This is  just what I was looking for. I see I only saw the original series, but I really enjoyed it. It was in German, of course, but with fair English subtitles. My German comprehension was modest but good enough to appreciate the action and  subtleties of the speakers and time. There's no chance,but I'd watch it again gladly if I had the choice.

OK, back on topic...